Atheists as members?

MysticCat · #1 07-18-2006, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drolefille

So I don't understand that concept. Most oaths made do not involve one to God.. I'm not even talking about fraternity oaths. Atheists in court swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth... adding God in doesn't change anything.

Actually, by definition most oaths do call on God or some other sacred principle to witness and bind the oath -- as in the way the courtroom oath ends, "So help me God."

In court, at least, if God is not invoked, it's called an Affirmation, not an Oath. It begins "I do solemnly affirm" rather than "I do solemnly swear," and it ends without "So help me God." The form is different, but the legal effect is the same.

And 33girl is right. Interestingly, Affirmations were first used not to accomodate atheists, but to accomodate Quakers and other Christian groups who believe that oath-taking is prohibited by Scripture.

Just trying to pick another high-jack discussion with you, Drolefille.

AlphaFrog · #2 07-18-2006, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat81

Just trying to pick another high-jack discussion with you, Drolefille.

That's not nice. You're going to get her in trouble.

MysticCat · #3 07-18-2006, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

That's not nice. You're going to get her in trouble.

A boy's got to find his fun where he can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Yeah there are affirmations, and you do often swear BY something, but I don't think it requires God to make it mean anything...

Nor is an "affirmation" less valid.

Right -- legally, both are valid and binding (in the sense of being made under penalty of perjury). The point is an affirmation is not an oath. An oath, by definition, is a solemn promise coupled with "an appeal to a sacred or venerated object, in evidence of the serious and reverent state of mind of the party, or with an invocation to a supreme being to witness the words of the party, and to visit him with punishment if they be false." (I really can't remember the last time I quoted Black's Law Dictionary on GreekChat.) No swearing by a sacred object ("my mother's grave") or invoking of a supreme being, no oath as traditionally defined.

Two parallel roads to the same place. Take your pick which road to take.

Drolefille · #4 07-18-2006, 10:49 AM

So, assuming I'm an atheist, if I swear by, i don't know.. Science.. will you count that as sacred to me?

Or if I'm pagan of some sort and swear by my holy bamboo stick of righteousness...

In my mind the intent of the person matters more than what they swear by.

/Wishes I had a bamboo stick of righteousness..
//Only have a popsicle stick of attitude..

MysticCat · #5 07-18-2006, 11:18 AM

The bamboo stick of righteousness. I love it! I gotta get me one of those.

If you are swearing by something sacred to you, that is what matters in swearing an oath, since that is evidence of the seriousness and reverence with which you make your solemn promise. (Harking back to Tom Earp's comments, think of the Boy Scout Oath, which is made "On my honor.")

Think of wacko Shane in the last season of Survivor. He kept swearing by his son -- appropriate (in a creepy sort of way) because his son was so important to him. But he asked others to swear on his son, too, in essence asking others to make a meaningless oath because his son was just another kid to them. What was sacred to him, and therefore adequate to demonstrate the seriouness with which he would take his promise, was not the same as what was sacred to others.

Or think of Lord of the Rings -- when Frodo and Sam need to to extract a promise from Gollum that he will not harm them, Frodo asks Gollum "On what will you swear?" (I.e., how can you assure us that we can trust you?) Gollum swears on the Ring, which Frodo knows is everything to Gollum. Frodo knows that swearing by the Ring will bind Gollum's conscience.

Swearing an oath and making an affirmation are both forms a solemn promises. The difference is in the form, not the effect.

AlphaFrog · #6 07-18-2006, 11:20 AM

Juliet: O, swear not by the moon, the inconstant moon, who monthly changes in her circled orb, lest that thy love prove likewise variable.
Romeo: What shall I swear by?
Juliet: Do not swear at all. Or, if thou wilt, swear by the gracious self which is the god of my idolatry, and I'll believe thee.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Drolefille · #7 07-18-2006, 11:35 AM

I totally agree with you, it's Liberal_South who would disagree I think...

MysticCat · #8 07-18-2006, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I totally agree with you, it's Liberal_South who would disagree I think...

Well, as you so aptly pointed out, unless Liberal _South is familiar with the rituals of GLOs other than his own, I doubt he knows whether members of other GLOs actually take an oath to God or not.

I will try not to lose any sleep tonight.

MysticCat · #9 07-18-2006, 11:32 AM

ROMEO
If my heart's dear love--

JULIET
Well, do not swear: although I joy in thee,
I have no joy of this contract to-night:
It is too rash, too unadvised, too sudden;
Too like the lightning, which doth cease to be
Ere one can say 'It lightens.' Sweet, good night!
This bud of love, by summer's ripening breath,
May prove a beauteous flower when next we meet.
Good night, good night! as sweet repose and rest
Come to thy heart as that within my breast!

ROMEO
O, wilt thou leave me so unsatisfied?

JULIET
What satisfaction canst thou have to-night?

ROMEO
The exchange of thy love's faithful vow for mine.

Drolefille · #10 07-18-2006, 10:26 AM

LOL it's ok, again this topic is going nowhere else...

Yeah there are affirmations, and you do often swear BY something, but I don't think it requires God to make it mean anything...

Nor is an "affirmation" less valid.

AlphaFrog · #11 07-18-2006, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drolefille

LOL it's ok, again this topic is going nowhere else...

Yeah there are affirmations, and you do often swear BY something, but I don't think it requires God to make it mean anything...

Nor is an "affirmation" less valid.

I don't have my notary book for the exact wording, but when I do an oath for someone (if they are swearing that they personally know someone or know someone's signature) there are two different ones. One is for a theist who believes in swearing to (or by) God, and there's another for Athiests and those who choose not to swear by God.

Drolefille · #12 07-18-2006, 10:33 AM

Right, but for other things... you can say " I SWEAR TO GOD" and not mean it just as easily as I can say.. "I SWEAR IT'S TRUE" and mean it. Even though I didn't call on a higher power.

I just don't like the assertion that you have to a) believe in God and b)swear by him for it to count...