Stage set for possible showdown on gay marriage

[shinerbock]

I'm sure this will make people angry...what about people who molest/are attracted to children. This is viewed as unnatural and somewhat of a mental disorder, and many people view homosexuality as the same. This is not my personal view, but I am curious as to how people would refute it.

[Drolefille]

The thing is, children cannot consent. Therefore we consider this to be a mental disorder. Especially because it harms children and pedophiles act like this doesn't matter.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I'm sure this will make people angry...what about people who molest/are attracted to children. This is viewed as unnatural and somewhat of a mental disorder, and many people view homosexuality as the same. This is not my personal view, but I am curious as to how people would refute it.

What do you mean refute it? Yes, it is a fact that people commit crimes against children.

I'm not sure that I understand what you're wanting here.

[kddani]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I'm sure this will make people angry...what about people who molest/are attracted to children. This is viewed as unnatural and somewhat of a mental disorder, and many people view homosexuality as the same. This is not my personal view, but I am curious as to how people would refute it.

An interesting question.

Children don't have the capacity to consent, by virtue of brain development, maturity, etc. Homosexuals do.
Children have much less of an ability to protect themselves, are more easily influences, and don't even have the mental capacity to know what's going on. Child molesters prey upon this.

In general, I would guess people that consider child molesters to be unnatural/mentally disturbed because they are preying upon individuals that can't defend themselves and that don't understand what's going on.

Homosexuals have the capacity to consent and understand what they are doing. They are not hurting anyone or preying on any victims.

[shinerbock]

Yeah, I can see that as part of the equation. However, is it solely the the fact that the children can't consent, or is it also simply the fact that they are children....As in, is the only reason child molestation is bad is because the kids aren't old enough to fight back or make rational decisions? If so, then that changes statuatory rape (although I think that can be overboard at times). So if we decide that it is something more than just the consent problem, that the desire for children is in itself wrong, wouldnt that open the door to people saying that just as they're unnaturally attracted to children, gay people are unnaturally attracted to people of the same sex? Once again,not claiming this to be the case, but I hear this argument sometimes, and it is usually shot down as outlandish (which it may turn out to be), before any discussion is given to it.

[kddani]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Yeah, I can see that as part of the equation. However, is it solely the the fact that the children can't consent, or is it also simply the fact that they are children....As in, is the only reason child molestation is bad is because the kids aren't old enough to fight back or make rational decisions? If so, then that changes statuatory rape (although I think that can be overboard at times). So if we decide that it is something more than just the consent problem, that the desire for children is in itself wrong, wouldnt that open the door to people saying that just as they're unnaturally attracted to children, gay people are unnaturally attracted to people of the same sex? Once again,not claiming this to be the case, but I hear this argument sometimes, and it is usually shot down as outlandish (which it may turn out to be), before any discussion is given to it.

Well we're not really talking about statutory rape, we're talking about child molestation, which is different in the broad context that we're discussing.

What more is needed for reasons that child molestation is "bad" because it preys upon individuals who don't have the capacity to understand what's going on and who can't defend themselves?

I don't really follow how you're relating child molestation to gay people. The obvious, main difference that there's really no argument against is that with homosexuals, no one is getting hurt. There are no "victims". No one is suffering any injury because of it. No one is having anything forced upon them against their will.

I really fail to see how the two relate... it's apples and oranges.

[shinerbock]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is true or that even if it were gay people should be punished or treated like child molestors. I think we all agree that child molestors generally have an attraction to abnormally young people and this is unnatural. According to them, and the medical community I believe, they can't help it. So what then, would we say to people who claim that like people attracted to children, people attracted to the same sex also have a mental disorder. Is the fact that child molestors hurt the innocent, or those who can't make wise decisions, the reasoning for it being a disorder? Or is it that they are attracted to abnormally young people? What if someone had feelings of attraction towards children, but resisted it, is that still a disorder? If so, how would you respond to those who believe being gay is a mental "disorder"? If they are both innate things they cannot choose, what makes a normal but semi-rare attraction, while the other is a mental disorder?

[shinerbock]

Greekalum, I'm referring to the physical injury that can result from gay sex. I'm not saying it is a reason to not allow gay marriage, I brought it up on regarding the issue of whether risks can be higher in gay relationships. I hope you now see what I'm saying, because I really don't enjoy thinking about it.

[greekalum]

Ah, okay. That's also not necessarily any more common in the homosexual vs. heterosexual community. Not to mention the number of sex related injuries that are due to just plain klutziness.

[valkyrie]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Greekalum, I'm referring to the physical injury that can result from gay sex. I'm not saying it is a reason to not allow gay marriage, I brought it up on regarding the issue of whether risks can be higher in gay relationships. I hope you now see what I'm saying, because I really don't enjoy thinking about it.

Yeah, um, this happens in straight relationships, too -- although, if my theory is correct, the guys who ask for it have tiny penises and injury therefore isn't as likely.

[kddani]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

If they are both innate things they cannot choose, what makes a normal but semi-rare attraction, while the other is a mental disorder?

Again, i'm going to say that one hurts people and is against the will, the other is consentual and no one gets hurt.

Perhaps if you can give us something more to go on as to why these two should relate? I really can't say any more than that without knowing why someone would equate these two things as being the same. You don't have to agree with the reasoning, just state what some of it is. If you say that they're both a mental disorder, well again, one hurts people, the other doesn't. I don't know what more of a difference is needed.

[SOPi_Jawbreaker]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is true or that even if it were gay people should be punished or treated like child molestors. I think we all agree that child molestors generally have an attraction to abnormally young people and this is unnatural. According to them, and the medical community I believe, they can't help it. So what then, would we say to people who claim that like people attracted to children, people attracted to the same sex also have a mental disorder. Is the fact that child molestors hurt the innocent, or those who can't make wise decisions, the reasoning for it being a disorder? Or is it that they are attracted to abnormally young people? What if someone had feelings of attraction towards children, but resisted it, is that still a disorder? If so, how would you respond to those who believe being gay is a mental "disorder"? If they are both innate things they cannot choose, what makes a normal but semi-rare attraction, while the other is a mental disorder?

I don't have an answer to your question about how to respond to people who think being gay is a "disorder". However, I wanted to say that for many sexual offenders, it is about more than just attraction. It is also a power/control issue, where they violate those that are vulnerable (smaller than them, weaker than them, easily scared/kept quiet by threats of harm to their families, easily manipulated into believing either that it's what little girls/boys are supposed to do with dad/uncle/neighbor/etc. or into believing that they *the child* are sinning/doing something so despicable that everyone will hate them if they told). I definitely think that people who prey on children should not be considered as being on the same plane as statutory rape, provided that it's between two teenagers and not a 40-year old man and a teenage (because in that case, they are not on the same level of maturity development and it leaves the door open to the teenager being preyed upon)

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is true or that even if it were gay people should be punished or treated like child molestors. I think we all agree that child molestors generally have an attraction to abnormally young people and this is unnatural. According to them, and the medical community I believe, they can't help it. So what then, would we say to people who claim that like people attracted to children, people attracted to the same sex also have a mental disorder. Is the fact that child molestors hurt the innocent, or those who can't make wise decisions, the reasoning for it being a disorder? Or is it that they are attracted to abnormally young people? What if someone had feelings of attraction towards children, but resisted it, is that still a disorder? If so, how would you respond to those who believe being gay is a mental "disorder"? If they are both innate things they cannot choose, what makes a normal but semi-rare attraction, while the other is a mental disorder?

I think you are having a little trouble getting over the concept of a learned/developed sexual preference (say attraction to children) and a genetic pre-disposition towards a sexual preference (homosexuality/bisexuality).

Now you'd be hard pressed to present cases of sexual attraction to children manifesting itself before an individual's sexual maturity... whereas the opposite is true for homosexuality or bisexuality; as there are many cases and studies dating back well over 50 years and throughout the historic record for that matter.