Joe Horn - Page 8

TexasWSP · #**106** 07-06-2008, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

No and cops especially can't shoot to kill, just because.

So no?.........Joe Horn didn't operate within the limits of the law here in Texas? Didn't we establish that he did?

I don't think he shot them "just because". Apparently you do. I think he shot them because they ran at him and he robbed his neighbor's home.

Furthermore, your original post asked about a cop shooting a fleeing assailant and what the outcome would be......not shooting someone "just because". Pretty sure there is a huge difference.

TexasWSP · #**107** 07-06-2008, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon1856

Brother,
No one here, TTBOMK, was on the GJ.
I have heard the 911 tapes over and over and over.
And the first thought I had from the very first one is still in my mind:
He had it in his head that he was going to shoot & kill someone as he place the call.
He was safe inside his own house.
What did he do? He got a shot-gun, loaded it, went out side, told the two they were dead and then fired into their backs.
Just MPOV and VHO.

1. I don't know what all of these abbreviations mean.

2. The report and eyewitness account by the police officer, if I read it correctly, states that the illegal Colombian criminals ran at him and then veered off as he shot them. Again, if two burglars run at me after robbing the house next door.....they are getting shot.

3. Who cares if he was "safe inside his house"? He protected his neighbor's home and took two pieces of trash off my Texas streets. Congratulations for not doing nothing.

DSTCHAOS · #**108** 07-06-2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

operate within the limits of the law here in Texas?

You're talking about Texas law. I'm not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

I don't think he shot them "just because". Apparently you do. I think he shot them because they ran at him.

It is often the case that cops can't shoot alleged assailants in the back or shoot to kill when there is no clear and present threat. That's what my original post addressed.

Horn shot and killed "just because" he wanted to and felt that he could. If they ran from him then they were no longer his problem. They weren't his problem in the first place but especially if they were running.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

Furthermore, your original post asked about a cop shooting a fleeing assailant and what the outcome would be......not shooting someone "just because". Pretty sure there is a huge difference.

No, I provided a rhetorical question about cops shooting alleged assailants who present no clear and present threat, whether they are unarmed or fleeing.

TexasWSP · #**109** 07-06-2008, 01:56 PM

I thought that it has been established from the witness report that they ran at him, not away from him. I'm glad that he chose not to look at the situation as "not his problem". Good for him for giving sh*t.

You keep talking about clear and present dangers..........does that matter in the case of a fleeing assailant who is commanded by an officer to remain still, don't move, etc. etc.? From watching and reading about these kinds of situations pretty much all the time....I am fairly certain that a police officer is authorized to use that level of force. Also, I want to think that a cop doesn't assume a suspect to be unarmed.....ever.

DSTCHAOS · #**110** 07-06-2008, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

I thought that it has been established from the witness report that they ran at him, not away from him.

You're right. My bad.

If he hadn't have walked his butt outside looking for a fight, they would've have done so.

I'm not saying that running to him (if that's true) was smart or justifiable on their part. Horn (or anyone else in his position) and the suspects' fault are two different issues, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

You keep talking about clear and present dangers..........does that matter in the case of a fleeing assailant who is commanded by an officer to remain still, don't move, etc. etc.?

Yes, if the fleeing alleged assailant poses no immediate threat to the officer or to others.

Por ejemplo: http://articles.latimes.com/2005/dec...tion/na-alito3

Similarly, in some states it is in violation of the law for home owners to shoot burglars before they enter their home (and before they pose a threat) or once they are exiting the home (and no longer pose a threat).

So laws in different states are what they are but the implications of the laws are much more interesting. The implications are what we're discussing now. So there's no need for people to keep reminding us of TX law and that the jury found that Horn did not violate the law. We get that, thanks.

jon1856 · #**111** 07-07-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Not just yours.

Texas law has "spoken" but this discussion doesn't end there.

Texas law has not, in truth, spoken.
As the Grand Jury did not charge or indict him, his case never made it to trial.
And there is a rather old statement that a DA can indict even a plain old ham sandwich.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhiGam

Thankfully Texas law agrees with my POV. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Either you think that Joe made the right decision to go outside and confront the thieves or you think that Joe Horn should have hidden in his house and let the crooks get away. I wouldn't have done what Joe Horn did but I admire him for having the courage to do it.

As above, a petite jury was never given all the information to make a decision on matter.
Courage to commit premeditated murder?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasWSP

1. I don't know what all of these abbreviations mean.

2. The report and eyewitness account by the police officer, if I read it correctly, states that the illegal Colombian criminals ran at him and then veered off as he shot them. Again, if two burglars run at me after robbing the house next door.....they are getting shot.

3. Who cares if he was "safe inside his house"? He protected his neighbor's home and took two pieces of trash off my Texas streets. Congratulations for not doing nothing.

Brother, to the very best of my knowledge, no one on this board was on the Grand Jury.
And Grand Juries do not hear all the information nor do they get all the sides involved. My fiancée was just on a Federal Grand Jury for over a year.
She still has yet to tell me what they did and to whom. All I know is that some of what they handled did make the news, some on the front pages.

And I do not know if they, the members of the GJ, knew while deliberating
the backgrounds of the two murdered suspects.

Being safe within his own house is, IIRC, part of the law.

And just how would this turn out if the two dead parties were drunk Fraternity Brothers who decided to do some prank on someone?
And yes, that is a rather good possibility if you give it some thought.

TexasWSP · #**112** 07-07-2008, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

You're right. My bad.

If he hadn't have walked his butt outside looking for a fight, they would've have done so.

I'm not saying that running to him (if that's true) was smart or justifiable on their part. Horn (or anyone else in his position) and the suspects' fault are two different issues, as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, if the fleeing alleged assailant poses no immediate threat to the officer or to others.

Por ejemplo: http://articles.latimes.com/2005/dec...tion/na-alito3

Similarly, in some states it is in violation of the law for home owners to shoot burglars before they enter their home (and before they pose a threat) or once they are exiting the home (and no longer pose a threat).

So laws in different states are what they are but the implications of the laws are much more interesting. The implications are what we're discussing now. So there's no need for people to keep reminding us of TX law and that the jury found that Horn did not violate the law. We get that, thanks.

Gotcha. Thanks for the link.

DSTCHAOS · #**113** 07-07-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon1856

Texas law has not, in truth, spoken.
As the Grand Jury did not charge or indite him, his case never made it to trial.
And there is a rather old statement that a DA can indite even a plain old ham sandwich.

Welp, we'll just wait and see then.

PhiGam · #**114** 07-07-2008, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

This discussion isn't about agreeing. It is about discussing.

Not much to discuss, some people think that he was morally correct in confronting the burglars and some people do not.

DaemonSeid · #**115** 07-07-2008, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhiGam

Not much to discuss, some people think that he was morally correct in confronting the burglars and some people do not.

slight correction for clarity...

some thought his solution during the confrontation (shooting) was correct.....blah blah...not trying to split hairs but u see what i mean....

jon1856 · #**116** 07-07-2008, 08:11 PM

Well, this has yet to be brought up here; seems as if this case/county is heading in the same direction (without some of the "noise") as another recent shooting case has gone:
HARRIS COUNTY
Lawmaker calls for inquiry into Harris County legal system

Sheila Jackson Lee wants Congress to look into string of local scandals

"ASSOCIATED PRESS
Monday, July 07, 2008

HOUSTON — U.S. Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee called Sunday for a congressional inquiry into what she believes is a state of crisis within the Harris County legal system.
The Houston Democrat primarily cited a recent grand jury decision not to indict suburban homeowner Joe Horn, the retired grandfather who shot to death two men he suspected of burglarizing a neighbor's home.
"There needs to be a question about how the case was presented," Jackson Lee said. "Was there no basis for this individual to be tried by a jury of his peers?"
She said her effort also was spurred by a string of other controversial cases and scandals involving Harris County criminal justice agencies, including the sheriff's office, where top commanders were disciplined for sending racially insensitive e-mails.
"It is time for all officials to be held accountable and true justice and democracy to be restored," she said. "
http://www.statesman.com/news/conten...707harris.html
http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_9804679
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/5874193.html
http://www.abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Wir...5320173&page=1

Kevin · #**117** 07-07-2008, 08:45 PM

You lost me at Sheila Jackson Lee.

DaemonSeid · #**118** 07-07-2008, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jon1856

Well, this has yet to be brought up here; seems as if this case/county is heading in the same direction (without some of the "noise") as another recent shooting case has gone:
HARRIS COUNTY
Lawmaker calls for inquiry into Harris County legal system

Sheila Jackson Lee wants Congress to look into string of local scandals

"ASSOCIATED PRESS
Monday, July 07, 2008

HOUSTON — U.S. Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee called Sunday for a congressional inquiry into what she believes is a state of crisis within the Harris County legal system.
The Houston Democrat primarily cited a recent grand jury decision not to indict suburban homeowner Joe Horn, the retired grandfather who shot to death two men he suspected of burglarizing a neighbor's home.
"There needs to be a question about how the case was presented," Jackson Lee said. "Was there no basis for this individual to be tried by a jury of his peers?"
She said her effort also was spurred by a string of other controversial cases and scandals involving Harris County criminal justice agencies, including the sheriff's office, where top commanders were disciplined for sending racially insensitive e-mails.
"It is time for all officials to be held accountable and true justice and democracy to be restored," she said. "
http://www.statesman.com/news/conten...707harris.html
http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_9804679
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/5874193.html
http://www.abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Wir...5320173&page=1

This, from the same woman who thought the Mars Rover could find Neil Armstrong's footprints and wanted hurricanes to have more ethnic sounding names....yeah

Kevin · #**119** 07-07-2008, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

This, from the same woman who thought the Mars Rover could find Neil Armstrong's footprints and wanted hurricanes to have more ethnic sounding names....yeah

We agree then.

jon1856 · #**120** 07-07-2008, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

This, from the same woman who thought the Mars Rover could find Neil Armstrong's footprints and wanted hurricanes to have more ethnic sounding names....yeah

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

We agree then.

She may not have the "perfect" past.
Does anyone???

However, her comments/thoughts on this matter made the news (I saw it while reading my morning newspaper) so now we have to sit back and see just what develops out of them.
BTB-She is a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha