Phi Kappa Psi at U of Virginia Voluntarily Suspends Activities

[exlurker]

The Seven Society at UVA is offering money ($57,777.77) for bystander training and other training-- the gift is offered to honor several students, including "Jackie" (of the Rolling Stone story):

http://inthecapital.streetwise.co/20...ates-57777-77/

[thetalady]

Curious about what GC members think.... do sororities continue to flourish or exist without a fraternity system? NPC Sororities are not causing the problems, but we seem to be gathered up in the condemnation of the Greek system. For that matter, is there any impact on NPHC or MCG orgs?

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by thetalady

Curious about what GC members think.... do sororities continue to flourish or exist without a fraternity system? NPC Sororities are not causing the problems, but we seem to be gathered up in the condemnation of the Greek system. For that matter, is there any impact on NPHC or MCG orgs?

The legal folk should be able to address this.

Aren't there federal laws that state that the university must provide all students - regardless of sex - the right to equal campus activities? (I know the wording is off.) What I mean is, does a university that allows GLOs for one sex have to allow GLOs for the other sex? If so, then it seems that the university would not be able to ban male-only GLOs while allowin female-only ones.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by thetalady

Curious about what GC members think.... do sororities continue to flourish or exist without a fraternity system? NPC Sororities are not causing the problems, but we seem to be gathered up in the condemnation of the Greek system.

I disagree. NPC sororities are not causing the problem, but certain things they do are enabling it.

-Sororities continue to socialize and support fraternities that are well-known to act like a-holes (this isn't just rape, this is a host of other things) if they are "popular" enough. Men will continue to join a fraternity that engages in questionable practices if it's known that attractive women hang out there.

-The prohibition on alcohol in NPC groups' housing makes sorority women dependent on men for a social space. Most of the time, this ends up meaning fraternities. It's an attitude from the 50s - the 1850s - and it needs to be scuttled. Putting the hosting ability in women's hands means men that engage in unpleasant practices won't be welcome. (Saying this as someone who has thrown a-hole men out of her house) As long as women are seen as "unable" to handle alcohol in their houses - by their own sisters - it'll breed a patriarchal and unequal atmosphere.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by 33girl

-The prohibition on alcohol in NPC groups' housing makes sorority women dependent on men for a social space.

I'm not so sure... I even buy the premise that it should not be difficult to convince men not to rape women. I think it's an incredibly reasonable proposition.

[thetalady]

Originally Posted by 33girl

-The prohibition on alcohol in NPC groups' housing makes sorority women dependent on men for a social space. Most of the time, this ends up meaning fraternities. It's an attitude from the 50s - the 1850s - and it needs to be scuttled. Putting the hosting ability in women's hands means men that engage in unpleasant practices won't be welcome. (Saying this as someone who has thrown a-hole men out of her house) As long as women are seen as "unable" to handle alcohol in their houses - by their own sisters - it'll breed a patriarchal and unequal atmosphere.

I hate to ask this question, but I will do it anyway.... WHY is alcohol allowed in fraternity houses, ESPECIALLY those that are on campus? Is it the "I would rather that they drink at home" justification? Alcohol seems to be at the root of many of these incidents.

[1964Alum]

I think much depends on why young women join a sorority. If it is for the greater association with the men in fraternities and their parties, then I think that the demise of fraternities would affect some recruitments in some sororities.

Back in my day -50 years ago!- the sororities certainly flourished with far fewer ties to the fraternities. We joined up with one fraternity to give a Christmas party for local orphans. And the fraternities sponsored a women, most often a Greek, for Homecoming Queen. And we all participated in Greek Week in the spring with many intermurals and the like.

What we did NOT have were frequent mixers, events where alcohol was served on campus. Women were not allowed in the fraternity houses, nor were the men allowed in ours. And that was very firmly enforced. Larger and more formal fraternity parties with alcohol being served were held in hotels in a neighboring large city. There was also a large and dark nightspot in this same city with live music that served alcohol that many of us went to on the weekends, often with a borrowed ID from a sister.

Many sorority women of course dated, became pinned to, and married fraternity men. But many did not. Same thing with the men in fraternities.

My campus certainly had a party culture that involved the fraternities, but it was very tame and not a prominent feature of life within a sorority. There was one exception with close ties to one fraternity that would have been more profoundly affected without the tie to that fraternity. But not so with all the other sororities on my campus.

It is very likely very different today.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by 1964Alum

There was also a large and dark nightspot in this same city with live music that served alcohol that many of us went to on the weekends, often with a borrowed ID from a sister.

This is another huge part of the problem. The 21 year old drinking age makes fraternity houses the only place for the majority of college students to socialize - when in reality, they'd sometimes probably be safer at a bar, even a dive bar. The problem is places just can't look the other way as far as fake IDs and such anymore. The stakes are too high.

[KDMafia]

I think that sororities could survive without fraternities although I'd imagine we'd see their scope and size change depending on the campus climate. Could fraternities survive without houses? What if, instead of removing the orgs, they removed the housing? I am from and work on a campus that has both housed and unhoused fraternities and it seems to have little bearing on recruitment for the fraternities.

[Low D Flat]

This issue, kind of like school shootings, kind of like terrorist attacks, etc., while real and while needing to be addressed is not nearly so pervasive as your above sentence would suggest.

No, I don't agree. School shootings, and especially terrorist attacks, are orders of magnitude rarer than rapes in fraternity houses or by fraternity men.

I'd be willing to bet that most of us on GC are aware of one or more sexual assaults that occurred within the Greek system of our own campuses. I know survivors from my alma mater. In fact, it might be easier to count those of us who are not aware of any such events from our colleges. But the vast majority of us attended colleges where there has never been a school shooting. And that is true even though rapes can and do stay secret, and school shootings do not. We're talking about many thousands of rapes vs. dozens of school shootings at most.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

No, I don't agree. School shootings, and especially terrorist attacks, are orders of magnitude rarer than rapes in fraternity houses or by fraternity men.

I'd be willing to bet that most of us on GC are aware of one or more sexual assaults that occurred within the Greek system of our own campuses.

I think that depends on what we're talking about when we talk about rapes and sexual assaults for purposes of the comparison Kevin was drawing. Are we talking about any instance where alcohol abuse by both parties makes consent murkey or meaningless, or where consent is withdrawn? Or are we only talking about those instances where there is a deliberate and conspiratorial intent and plan to rape or assault, such as what has been described at UVA. I think when Kevin made the school shootings and terrorist attacks comparison, he was speaking only of the latter kinds of rapes and assaults, not date rape and the like.

Which is not say one is a problem and one isn't; not at all. But they're not exactly the same problem.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Which is not say one is a problem and one isn't; not at all. But they're not exactly the same problem.

And they would not benefit from the same solution. A predatory rapist isn't going to be amenable to being "taught" not to rape. And thinking that college expulsion is a proper resolution seems insane.

So why are so many activists (and media) using this "it's all the same big problem" approach?

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I think when Kevin made the school shootings and terrorist attacks comparison, he was speaking only of the latter kinds of rapes and assaults, not date rape and the like.

Which is not say one is a problem and one isn't; not at all. But they're not exactly the same problem.

How, exactly, are you defining date rape? The RS article involved a woman who was raped by a man she knew and was on a date with. That pretty classically meets the definition of "date rape."

[thetalady]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

How, exactly, are you defining date rape? The RS article involved a woman who was raped by a man she knew and was on a date with. That pretty classically meets the definition of "date rape."

How dense can you be? According to the article, she was raped by 7 men. She was NOT on a date with 7 men. This was NOT date rape. It was a horrific gang rape.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by thetalady

How dense can you be? According to the article, she was raped by 7 men. She was NOT on a date with 7 men. This was NOT date rape. It was a horrific gang rape.

Pretty dense. Please educate me on which types of rape rise to the level of "horrific" and which types we don't really have to worry about.