Kanye West Rips Into Bush during live feed

[Coramoor]

a lot of people left because they couldn't. with gas prices what they are, and the economic class in which they inhabit....what else could you expect? a lot of people stuck around because they COULDN"T leave.

so he's supposed to singlehandely fix the problem himself because he's an elected official? damn...i guess it is ok that the federal government took as long as it did, because nagin himself should have been on top of the ball. this response is idiotic.

Read the article already posted above about how Nagin mis-handled the situation. While he is not single handedly supposed to fix it, he is the one that in charge down there. If there was any lack of activity it was due to him not doing his job.

I still think that most of the blame lies with the local and state gov't in this situation. The Feds now have to come in to clean up an even bigger mess.

It does take time to mobilize troops. Especially when the state and feds are fighting over control of the situation. The gov down there didn't want the feds to take over b/c they didn't want 'martial law' there. That wrestle of power took time away from the victims. There are many things that added to the time, although 5 days before there was any help is definitly wrong. Yeah, it was a few days before there were a 100k troops, but there have been help there since it happened.

[BigCityStripper]

Originally posted by starang21
a lot of people left because they couldn't. with gas prices what they are, and the economic class in which they inhabit....what else could you expect? a lot of people stuck around because they COULDN"T leave.

Why don't you read the article I posted above about the city and school buses available to Nagin that he didn't use. Click on the link to the AP photo of a parking lot full of empty buses. Every seat on those buses represents one person that could have been evacuated alive if Nagin would have done HIS job.

[KSig RC]

Can anyone provide me with an actionable plan to mobilize 100k people from disparate regions and move them into a location that has no power, as well as no relevant governmental or organizational structure? Oh also you need to get their supplies there as well. Also the I-10 bridge over the lake is out, so you can't take the most direct route. Also the city is 90% under water, and on fire. Oh - and do in fewer than 4 days. Write that plan up for me, guys - it's just not that simple to do.

Don't get me wrong, I think that failing to envision the potential failure of the levy system (and the mismanagement by LA officials, who have never been known for efficacy to my knowledge) accounts for a miserably poor decision, but once it's been done, I can't imagine how things could have gone better. It was a disaster, in every sense.

Hindsight is indeed fraught with clarity, but to mobilize this kind of force before natural disasters (since, obviously, we "knew it was coming") would be met with similar monday-morning quarterbacking when the disaster did not live up to projections . . . think of how expensive it would be over the long term. Guess who gets penalized most in the ensuing taxation?

Oh yeah - the poor, due to the relative time value of money.

The poor get screwed in everything - realize that the poor also inhabit the poorest parts of NO, and have since its inception. The poor got screwed in Rome, the poor got screwed in Stalingrad during the revolution, they're currently getting screwed in the USA - we can do our best to ameliorate the situation, but times of crisis hit the poor harder. I'm not sure how we can account for this, or if it's possible.

With all of that said, Kanye can use his time and his influence to say anything he pleases - hell, if even one person uses Kanye's message to investigate further, then wasn't it worth it? Why should a celebrity pull punches, politically, intellectually or really for anything, when we give them a stage and an audience?

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by KSig RC
Can anyone provide me with an actionable plan to mobilize 100k people from disparate regions and move them into a location that has no power, as well as no relevant governmental or organizational structure? Oh also you need to get their supplies there as well. Also the I-10 bridge over the lake is out, so you can't take the most direct route. Also the city is 90% under water, and on fire. Oh - and do in fewer than 4 days. Write that plan up for me, guys - it's just not that simple to do.

Well, I can't -- but it's not my JOB to.

That said, I think it's pretty clear that Bush & his admin are not the only ones who dropped the ball here. Blame can be placed pretty fairly on a number of parties who span the political system.

[lifesaver]

Originally posted by KSig RC
Can anyone provide me with an actionable plan to mobilize 100k people from disparate regions and move them into a location that has no power, as well as no relevant governmental or organizational structure? Oh also you need to get their supplies there as well. Also the I-10 bridge over the lake is out, so you can't take the most direct route. Also the city is 90% under water, and on fire. Oh - and do in fewer than 4 days. Write that plan up for me, guys - it's just not that simple to do.

I can.

When the military invades a country, the first target is securing the airport. Thats what should have been done here. Helicopters land with troops and secure the airport, making sure the runways were useable and setting up the initial command post in the city. Immediately after the runway is cleared for landings, then the C5 Galaxy's begin the process of bringing in materials and bringing out people.(See the Wiki for the C5 Here) In brief.. The Lockheed C-5 Galaxy is one of the largest aircraft in the world. It can carry outsize and oversize cargo intercontinental ranges and can take off or land in relatively short distances. Ground crews can load and off load the C-5 simultaneously at the front and rear cargo openings.

Specifically, the first C5 Flights bring in massive numbers of troops and equipment necessary to get to the superdome (about 10 miles away) - I'm thinking bulldozers and chainsaws and heavy trucks so a path can be cleared to the superdome (there are a few routes above water that could be utilized). Once a path is created, then the C5's begin coming in on a rapid basis, bringing in food, water, ice troops and vehicles. Those vehicles take the materials to the superdome drop them off and pick up people and return the people to the airport. Once the system is set up, 50,000 people could be evacuated from the city in a matter of 24 hours.

We're only talking about the evacuation of New Orleans. The city is an extreemly compact urban area, and most of the low income people are in a localized area (pre-storm; post storm, most 'refugees' were at the superdome). The military provides the structure. Also, the I-10 bridge to Slidell isnt the only route in/out of the city. I-10 runs east-west and there is the Crecent City Connection (the signature bridge near the CBD) to the Westbank Expressway (I-10 near the CBD is underwater). Afterall, they did bus many of those refugees out to Texas. So it was doable. I just think the airlift route would have been much more efficient - and not too hard to figure out.

Just a thought.

[BigCityStripper]

Originally posted by lifesaver
I can.

When the military invades a country, the first target is securing the airport. Thats what should have been done here. Helicopters land with troops and secure the airport, making sure the runways were useable and setting up the initial command post in the city. Immediately after the runway is cleared for landings, then the C5 Galaxy's begin the process of bringing in materials and bringing out people.(See the Wiki for the C5 Here) In brief.. The Lockheed C-5 Galaxy is one of the largest aircraft in the world. It can carry outsize and oversize cargo intercontinental ranges and can take off or land in relatively short distances. Ground crews can load and off load the C-5 simultaneously at the front and rear cargo openings.

Specifically, the first C5 Flights bring in massive numbers of troops and equipment necessary to get to the superdome (about 10 miles away) - I'm thinking bulldozers and chainsaws and heavy trucks so a path can be cleared to the superdome (there are a few routes above water that could be utilized). Once a path is created, then the C5's begin coming in on a rapid basis, bringing in food, water, ice troops and vehicles. Those vehicles take the materials to the superdome drop them off and pick up people and return the people to the airport. Once the system is set up, 50,000 people could be evacuated from the city in a matter of 24 hours.

We're only talking about the evacuation of New Orleans. The city is an extreemly compact urban area, and most of the low income people are in a localized area (pre-storm; post storm, most 'refugees' were at the superdome). The military provides the structure. Also, the I-10 bridge to Slidell isnt the only route in/out of the city. I-10 runs east-west and there is the Crecent City Connection (the signature bridge near the CBD) to the Westbank Expressway (I-10 near the CBD is underwater). Afterall, they did bus many of those refugees out to Texas. So it was doable. I just think the airlift route would have been much more efficient - and not too hard to figure out.

Just a thought.

C-5 Galaxies huh? That's a cute theory. Just to ask, how many of those do the Army, AF, Navy or USMC have just sitting around on runways, perfectly adapted to such needs? Oh, I'm sure there's hundreds and hundreds of these aircraft just sittin around, perfectly configured for just such an extraction and evacuation situation as this. Oh well, yes, and besides how MANY of these planes there are, I'm sure the LA Gov. and NO mayor have the authority to press these into service. The plain fact is, that if the NO mayor was serious about evac, him and the Gov. wouldn't have blown off Pres. Bush when he CALLED for evac, would have comandeered NO city buses and school buses, and rolled them through the poor neighborhoods and evacuated all they could. Instead they let their political differences blind them to the fact that, holy crap, W might actually have a clue what's good for them, and sentenced a large part of their constitunecy to death by their inaction.

People can smoke screen the blame all they want. They can try to shift the blame to Bush, or Republicans, or Whitey, or white devils all they want, but the true fumble here was by the elected mayor of NO and the Gov. of LA. I would venture to say that the enviornmental movement, who places a value on saving 'endangered' plants and animals in front of flood control and development measures is also partly to blame.

[KSigkid]

Eh, Kanye can say whatever he wants - I don't see any problem with him expressing his opinions. If you give someone a chance and a live television audience, there's a good chance they'll speak their mind.

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by KSigkid
Eh, Kanye can say whatever he wants - I don't see any problem with him expressing his opinions. If you give someone a chance and a live television audience, there's a good chance they'll speak their mind.

Very true. Remember his conspiracy theory during Live 8?

[KSigkid]

Originally posted by moe.ron
Very true. Remember his conspiracy theory during Live 8?

Yes I do - you give someone a platform to speak, don't be surprised when they take the chance to do it. I will say those comments did shock me a bit.

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by lifesaver
I can.

When the military invades a country, the first target is securing the airport. Thats what should have been done here. Helicopters land with troops and secure the airport, making sure the runways were useable and setting up the initial command post in the city. <snip for length>

But then people will argue that you're taking away manpower that could be saving lives elsewhere (though I realize in the long run, it would probably save more most people are only concerned about the Right Now). No matter what plan you have in place, it's going to take time and not everyone will be happy with it.

And the huricane/flooding doesn't just include New Orleans, it includes all the cities and parishes west and north that were also affected. Like I said before, where do you start?

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by KSigkid
Yes I do - you give someone a platform to speak, don't be surprised when they take the chance to do it. I will say those comments did shock me a bit.

Nothing shock me. I did like Myer's expression when he was saying it. I do think everybody have become too sensitive nowadays. So he said a few things, it's not the end of the world.

[KSigkid]

Originally posted by moe.ron
Nothing shock me. I did like Myer's expression when he was saying it. I do think everybody have become too sensitive nowadays. So he said a few things, it's not the end of the world.

Exactly - I don't think it's anything that anyone should make into too big of a deal. He said his peace, as he has every right, and that's that.

[Aduladi]

Originally posted by BigCityStripper
Why don't you read the article I posted above about the city and school buses available to Nagin that he didn't use. Click on the link to the AP photo of a parking lot full of empty buses. Every seat on those buses represents one person that could have been evacuated alive if Nagin would have done HIS job.

While Nagin probably could have used buses to get people out and it may have saved thousands of lives, I don't agree that the responsibility rests solely with him. There have been SCORES of natural disasters that the elected officials did not have control over. I think your comments over simplify the fact that in less than 24 hours the storm path CHANGED. Initially there was not an expectation that they would take as direct a hit as they ultimately did. He followed protocol by telling those near the water to leave. So given the initial track of the storm any evacuation efforts would have been the same no matter what-people inland would have potentially expected some water, but certainly not the amount that New O took in.

Secondly, I think it is really interesting how easily Americans can be led to ignore other really important things going on around them. While we blindly argue about New Orleans, has anyone noticed that no one is really talking about Mississippi? If you haven't seen any of those pictures they basically show houses collapsed like cardboard boxes and toothpicks-pretty much the entire state. I feel like we've been given New Orleans to fight and haggle over and second guess decisions to distract our attention away from the fact that there is probably no one left in Miss. I wonder if that has anything to do with the responsibility of the Bush administration, FEMA, Homeland Security, anyone in the government?

My point basically is that I think that this issue was bigger than buses. The government failed these people and really I think it has everything to do with class and race.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by BigCityStripper
C-5 Galaxies huh? That's a cute theory. Just to ask, how many of those do the Army, AF, Navy or USMC have just sitting around on runways, perfectly adapted to such needs? Oh, I'm sure there's hundreds and hundreds of these aircraft just sittin around, perfectly configured for just such an extraction and evacuation situation as this. Oh well, yes, and besides how MANY of these planes there are, I'm sure the LA Gov. and NO mayor have the authority to press these into service. The plain fact is, that if the NO mayor was serious about evac, him and the Gov. wouldn't have blown off Pres. Bush when he CALLED for evac, would have comandeered NO city buses and school buses, and rolled them through the poor neighborhoods and evacuated all they could. Instead they let their political differences blind them to the fact that, holy crap, W might actually have a clue what's good for them, and sentenced a large part of their constitunecy to death by their inaction.

The C-5 galaxy is actually specifically designed to fulfill the usage that lifesaver outlined - transport - thats what they do troops in, civilians out -or- suppies in, civilians out it's all part of the concept of the "strategic airlift"; actually there is a command structure dedicated solely to this purpose: AMC (Air Mobility Command). As for how many there are - well there are 109 in the inventory (Airforce, National Guard, and Reserve)... I'm assuming that anyone one of the 28 in reserve could have played a significant part in any operation in the hurricane zone - and given that many of C-5s are station in Oklahoma they aren't really that far away so fuel wouldn't have been an issue.

As for the ASSumption that golly gee if Bush called for an evacuation - wait when the hell did Bush do this? See every article/report I've come across talks about Nagin issueing the evac order, not Bush. But okay lets hypothetically stick with your ASSumption that Bush was the one that ordered/suggested and evacuation - if this was the case then Bush would be even more liable for the disaster that resulted because a) he knew it was coming; and b) he failed to preposition troops/supplies for the relief effort; and c) he failed to mobilize the military until well after the hurricane had hit. Word of advice if you were trying to defend Bush you really should think your arguements through because well...

People can smoke screen the blame all they want. They can try to shift the blame to Bush, or Republicans, or Whitey, or white devils all they want, but the true fumble here was by the elected mayor of NO and the Gov. of LA. I would venture to say that the enviornmental movement, who places a value on saving 'endangered' plants and animals in front of flood control and development measures is also partly to blame.

Yes damn those enviromentalists for trying to protect the outlying islands and coastal region that nominally act as a "cushion" to lessen the impact of weather systems rolling in off the coast; and damn those enviromentalists who wanted to protect the flood-lands and wet-lands around NO that would have acted as natural drainage zones in the event of flooding; and damn those enviromentalists for cutting back on the funds for the levee and its upkeep/expansion/maintainance... oh wait that'd have been Bush - my bad

[starang21]

Originally posted by Coramoor
Read the article already posted above about how Nagin mis-handled the situation. While he is not single handedly supposed to fix it, he is the one that in charge down there. If there was any lack of activity it was due to him not doing his job.

I still think that most of the blame lies with the local and state gov't in this situation. The Feds now have to come in to clean up an even bigger mess.

It does take time to mobilize troops. Especially when the state and feds are fighting over control of the situation. The gov down there didn't want the feds to take over b/c they didn't want 'martial law' there. That wrestle of power took time away from the victims. There are many things that added to the time, although 5 days before there was any help is definitly wrong. Yeah, it was a few days before there were a 100k troops, but there have been help there since it happened.

a few days????

talk about lowered expectations. a day here and there is the difference between life and death for a lot of these people. it's easy to try and lay blame on nagin, but the last time i checked new orleans was a city in lousiana, which is a state in the US. so hence, if there is a disaster that is far too great for city, or state resources to handle...then it's the fed's job to step intervene. you put an entire city underwater, and you want to talk about how the local government should have been better prepared?