Sex Change and Membership

[AKA_Monet]

Medically and psychologically, there is much debate about gender reassignment with full European change operation. The issue is from male to female vs. female to male is inherently unequal--i.e. the equipment is not fully operational...

Then psychologically, is it enough because someone "feels" like they are the wrong gender without gross genetic evidence, like Klinefelter's or other pseudohemaphroditism.

And the genetic evidence is strong... Sex determination at the zygote occurs roughly 2-3 days after fertilization and 8-16 cell stage. This process is not necessarily complete. What determines the male is testicular formation NOT penile formation. The genes that regulate testicular formation are on the Y chromosome--the 1-2 genes that are actually on the piece of DNA that are functional... Penile formation occurs on autosome(s), not sex chromosomes... So, it is possible that a genetic female (XX) has a penis--albeit not functional if she has some uterus and reminants of ovaries. More likely, she is not born with female parts, but a gapping hole.

Now these things constitute birth defects and are treated as such. Waiting for the baby to grow up and decide usually is painful that is why the doctors make the surgical decision based on the parents wishes at that time. And infant healing is relatively rapid.

However, loss of hormonal development at puberty is what is at stake. Girls who do not have somekind of menstruation at 10/11 till 14 years old are ostracized. Boys generally start their maturation and fighting at 9-13 years old as dictated by testosterone production.

So, if a PNM has a question regarding their gender identification, that is when I would ask her to see some kind of therapist. The issue for the organization is will programs be best served by this kind person if extended membership? That is not discrimination if they cannot fullfill the basic housing requirement.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by summer_gphib

disclaimer: The above was said in complete sarcasm and is rolling in smartassedness.

This word made me laugh. It's so perfect. I'd also like smartassity.

[indygphib]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

This word made me laugh. It's so perfect. I'd also like smartassity.

Sounds like a Jeapordy category - "I'll take smartassity for $200, Alex"

</hijack>

[AlphaFrog]

I'm feeling like this thread needs a SHIM referance...

Why are all of the threads lately bringing back old jokes?

[PSUSigKap]

Our Panhellenic actually had to deal with something kind of like this. At one time we had an organization who was an associate member of Panhellenic called Lambda Delta Omega which is a multi-cultural sorority for lesbians, bi-sexuals and heterosexual women. They had a transgendered male member (living as a female) who they wanted to be their Panhellenic representative. The powers that be (I don't know the process they went through) determined he could not be the LDO representative because he was not technically or legally a woman.

[Jody]

/hijack

There was a case in Florida where a transgendered male (female to male) was in a custody battle with the x-wife. The x-wife's lawyer succesfully argued that because Florida law dictactes that one is the gender that they are at birth and Florida law doesn't allow homosexuals to marry and/or adopt, the marriage and adoption was illegal and the x-husband had no claim to the children. The couple had been married about 8 years, the husband had adopted the children.

end hijack

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Xidelt

On all the shows I've seen on the Discovery channel, if the person goes all the way with the surgery, they legally change status to whatever gender they have transitioned to. So let's say "Ken" transitions to "Barbie". His driver's license will now read "Female". If "Ken" had previously been a member of XYZ fraternity in college, I would think he would forfeit his membership. Otherwise, wouldn't it put XYZ fraternity in danger of legally not being a single-sex organization anymore?

Oh the things you'll respond to at 3:36 am after taking your teenage brother-in-law to the Harry Potter premiere!

If memory serves me right....Ken doesn't have that far to go to become Barbie...heh

[Southron]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

Well, I'm pretty sure they can't join Southron's, but once members, they might not be expelled I believe was his point. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure his possible interpretation is that different that the average person's. I don't know that we accept the idea that post-op transsexuals are simply the new assigned gender. And I don't know if that's what the non-discrimination clauses demand.

Within the context of our organizations, I agree that issues of gender are always going to be strange because we can legally discriminate in a way that other institutions can't since we're by definition single sex.

I was away from the conversation, so thank you, AlphaGamUGAAlum. Yes, I appreciate your sincere interpretation even though the preceding commentator could not or would not get my meaning.

Modern science and traditional society both recognise sexual identity is usually established at birth (the exception of deformities notwithstanding.) Only the advent of revisionist ideologies and technical capabilities has allowed the "appearance" of surgical sex change to be achieved.

If a fraternity wishes to believe a man can make himself into a woman, then it can act accordingly. If on the other hand, the fraternity believes that a man cannot make himself into a woman, then they can only establish that "action" would follow if self-mutilation were to occur.

(BTW, throughout the 19th century the Freemasons would not initiate maimed or deformed individuals lacking arms or legs. Those requirements were only for initiation and later disfigurements did not eject the man from the fraternity. This is not exactly related to our discussion but it is well to note that some type of precedent exists in the fraternal community.)

As noted in the discussion, a distinction in our society seems increasingly lost among even college-educated communities - that distinction between what is legally established and that which is morally/ethically true. Most fraternities are established to bond their members according to shared values. When the state challenges those values, the fraternity can either resist the challenge openly or conform to the new regime. If a fraternity must obey laws whose morality it opposes, a free society will not challenge that fraternity's rejection of the principle asserted by an unjust or immoral law. Thus I could envision a fraternity being forced to accept laws as good citizens while teaching the immorality of the law to its members.

I do not believe my fraternity would knowingly initiate a woman - especially as one of our core value is the elevation and respect for the feminine. (Unlike other fraternities that have allowed co-ed membership in certain chapters, my order would lose its ethos if brothers were to treat "sisters" without deference and the other chivalric values. We could not possibly treat each other without distinctions because we hold the difference between the sexes as real. This is simply the philosophy we choose to champion. We do not assume all fraternities must order themselves with such a focus. However, that is a defining quality of our identity - a "landmark" if you will...)

Were an active or alumnus to undergo surgery to change sexual identity, I would hope the chapter or national organization would not participate in the charade unless compelled by law.

My thoughts clarified anyway... I hope...

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Southron

Unlike other fraternities that have allowed co-ed membership in certain chapters

Other than Alpha Delta Phi (which, to be technical, is an all male fraternity and a co-ed society - 2 different entities), examples please? (Chapters that leave the national fraternity and become local fraternities, like some of the groups at Dartmouth, don't count.)

[dukemama]

Originally Posted by 33girl

examples please?

Psi Upsilon has several coed chapters (the one at Duke was all-male while I was there, but went coed a few years ago). Other than that, though, I don't know of any others besides APO -- and that's considered a service fraternity rather than a social GLO.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Other than Alpha Delta Phi (which, to be technical, is an all male fraternity and a co-ed society - 2 different entities), examples please?

Originally Posted by dukemama

Psi Upsilon has several coed chapters (the one at Duke was all-male while I was there, but went coed a few years ago).

Delta Psi, aka St. Anthony Hall, which went co-ed in the 1960s. Also, as dukemama says, some chapters of Psi U are co-ed.

And although were are not an NIC fraternity, for a short time between the mid-70s and 1985, some women -- 236, to be exact -- were initiated into Phi Mu Alpha due to some uncertainties about the application of Title IX to the Fraternity. The practice was again prohibited across the board in 1985. Most chapters, however, were never able to initiate women. Before it could initiate any women, a chapter had to receive approval from our nationals. Approval was only given if the chapter was in real danger from the host institution as a result of only initiating men. Only 22 chapters were ever given permission to initiate women, and I don't think that all 22 of them actually did initiate women. A few of those 22 chapters wanted to continue as co-ed chapters after 1985 and withdrew (or, in one case, was expelled) from the Fraternity after the initiation of women was again prohibited.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by dukemama

Psi Upsilon has several coed chapters (the one at Duke was all-male while I was there, but went coed a few years ago). Other than that, though, I don't know of any others besides APO -- and that's considered a service fraternity rather than a social GLO.

Yup. and for the Alpha Phi Omega chapters in the USA, most of this discussion is of academic interest. I don't know of any APO (USA) brothers who have had a sex change operation. Only way that might be of interest is as a footnote, if a brother who joined back in the 1960s later went through a sex change operation and became (after the operation) the first brother to (later) be a woman.

As for Alpha Phi Omega in the Philippines, that National Organization runs more like Alpha Nu Omega in the USA does now, separate fraternity and sorority chapters at a school, but joined at the National Level. But the social pressures against sexual reassignment are *considerably* higher in the Philippines, so I wouldn't expect this to have happened.

Randy

[ealymc]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'm sure all fraternities have means by which a member can be expelled. If a member ceases to meet the minimum requirements which a member must meet, PC or not, they're gone. For us, there are other automatic expulsion rules (like being convicted of a felony, failing to pay dues, etc.)

My interpretation is a literal one -- if one's gender is physically changed, that person, nor the state, nor anyone else views it as a genital mutilation. They view it as gender reassignment.

Far be it from me to tell your fraternity how to treat this situation. How would mine handle it? If you're not a man, you're not a member. Easy.

I don't think a largely conservative, old, traditional organization such as mine is going to wiggle around with shifting definitions of gender so that we can keep a person on the membership roster after gender reassignment. They'll just be out.

Once you aren't an undergrad anymore, your ties to the Fraternity mostly revolve around continuing to support and advancing the goals of the organization. I highly doubt that Sigma Nu Nationals is going to turn away anyone's donorship or foundation support, and I SERIOUSLY doubt steps would be taken to retroactively withdraw membership from an initiated knight a decade or two down the road...

If you look at a list of initiated members throughout the life of a Fraternity, any fraternity in this case, you will see TONS of ambiguous names (i.e. Lindsay, Elisha, Ashley, Shannon, etc.) I honestly don't think the National body as a whole would be weeding through and leaning up the rosters

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ealymc

Once you aren't an undergrad anymore, your ties to the Fraternity mostly revolve around continuing to support and advancing the goals of the organization. I highly doubt that Sigma Nu Nationals is going to turn away anyone's donorship or foundation support, and I SERIOUSLY doubt steps would be taken to retroactively withdraw membership from an initiated knight a decade or two down the road...

If you look at a list of initiated members throughout the life of a Fraternity, any fraternity in this case, you will see TONS of ambiguous names (i.e. Lindsay, Elisha, Ashley, Shannon, etc.) I honestly don't think the National body as a whole would be weeding through and leaning up the rosters

If it were brought to HQ's attention, however, I think it becomes a serious question. Part of our tax status/gender exclusivity is based upon the single-sex nature of our organization.

I can't go into the details, because I really don't know much about that sort of thing just yet.

I do think it'd be bad joo-joo as far as the IRS is concerned, however.

You're absolutely right though, no one is combing through membership rosters.

[ealymc]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I do think it'd be bad joo-joo as far as the IRS is concerned

Joo-joo?