Michigan's Prop 2 to ban affirmative action

[AKA_Monet]

I think we live in a much more selfish society than we use to be.

Folks saying here and there that if so-in-so got into school for piss poor reasons, then blah, blah, blah.

How come you all give a rat's ass about who got into to wherever, however?

Like my mom said to me when I looked on her plate, "keep your eyes on your own plate!!!"

I don't want to hear about what you think fair. I just want to know why folks here on GC even care who gets into college? How does someone's admission to any SCHOOL affect Y-O-U?

[macallan25]

I would think that people appying to schools and programs with very limited acceptances would have an argument.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

I think we live in a much more selfish society than we use to be.

Folks saying here and there that if so-in-so got into school for piss poor reasons, then blah, blah, blah.

How come you all give a rat's ass about who got into to wherever, however?

Like my mom said to me when I looked on her plate, "keep your eyes on your own plate!!!"

I don't want to hear about what you think fair. I just want to know why folks here on GC even care who gets into college? How does someone's admission to any SCHOOL affect Y-O-U?

Now I'll preface this by saying I generally like/respect what AKA says. I hope this is sarcasm. However, if not, this is a terrible post. Most things that people like you, AKA, would say I should care about, don't have much to do with me. Hunger, poverty, insurance, none of these things has anything to do with my family. I guess I should care less then, no? Violent crime doesn't really happen here, considering I live in a safe area, so I guess I should shut such things out, yeah? When something unjust or wrong is happening, why is it just those directly impacted by it who should speak against it?

[AnchorAlum]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Quoting Mr. Justice Thomas is not much of an argument to me. I watched his confirmation hearings at some length and was amazed he was confirmed.

I watched the hearings as well. I was amazed that he was confirmed as well, although it was likely for an entirely different set of reasons.

Regardless of that, his statement as to the 14th has truth and merit.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

this is a terrible post. Most things that people like you, AKA, would say I should care about, don't have much to do with me. Hunger, poverty, insurance, none of these things has anything to do with my family. I guess I should care less then, no? Violent crime doesn't really happen here, considering I live in a safe area, so I guess I should shut such things out, yeah? When something unjust or wrong is happening, why is it just those directly impacted by it who should speak against it?

Shiner-

You know, I do have to appreciate your honesty.

And I honestly, fail to understand what you are talking about... Really.

I can basically interpret your statements several ways: 1) Are you saying that these horrific "things" (hunger, poverty, insurance, etc.) happen to the systematically and systemically downtroddened? Would that not be a stereotype then?

or are you saying:

2) People in a "pluralistic society" and a "republic" should never be selected to be a part of anything. Criteria for selection should purely be driven by merit--e.g. the best man for the job, etc... Anyway else is uncivilized...

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by macallan25

I would think that people appying to schools and programs with very limited acceptances would have an argument.

But it is "that one" school--like I will only apply to Michigan because they can barely hang on at #2 in the BCS...

Or, I am only applying to SEC schools because they have the better football teams...

But what's up with the ACC? Wake Forest beat that ass...

Then look at Boise St. for the WAC...

[shinerbock]

No AKA, I'm saying that you saying people like us shouldnt care about who gets admitted where how, is a ridiculous statement. If this is true, then why should I care about anything that doesn't directly affect me?

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

No AKA, I'm saying that you saying people like us shouldnt care about who gets admitted where how, is a ridiculous statement. If this is true, then why should I care about anything that doesn't directly affect me?

How come my statements must be ridiculous to you?

Do you really think someone else's university admission DIRECTLY affects Y-O-U?

If you do, then what DIRECT circumstances have caused Y-O-U to think that way?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

How come my statements must be ridiculous to you?

Do you really think someone else's university admission DIRECTLY affects Y-O-U?

If you do, then what DIRECT circumstances have caused Y-O-U to think that way?

Shinerbock is right. It doesn't have to affect him directly for him to have an opinion and concern.

Following your logic none of us should support affirmative action initiatives, EEOC, or social welfare programs if we've never knowingly been at the receiving end of discrimination or hardship based on race, class, and/or gender. Of course most of us are or have been targets for discrimination at some level based on race, class and/or gender so not being conscious of that fact doesn't erase it.

In your defense, I believe you are essentially saying that people shouldn't be so passionate about eliminating affirmative action just because a relatively small number of white people across the country claim reverse-discrimination. So unless the anti-AffAct whites can PROVE that they are one of the relatively few who have been passed up for a less qualified minority applicant, or there's evidence to suggest a high probability of that occuring, what's the issue? Afraid of the status quo crumbling and no longer being able to opportunity hoard? Whites are still the majority and there is no real threat of whites' missing out of opportunities because of the existence of affirmative action. White males are still at the top of most companies (which has some benefit for white women just like gender-based affirmative action does) and most work environments and promotion opportunities across the country are almost exclusively white.

[shinerbock]

And to be honest, I'm not really "passionate" about it. I think its wrong, but it doesn't keep me up at night. That being said, maybe it could one day.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

How come my statements must be ridiculous to you?

Do you really think someone else's university admission DIRECTLY affects Y-O-U?

If you do, then what DIRECT circumstances have caused Y-O-U to think that way?

I believe he is saying that it is ridiculous...because one could definitely infer from your latest posts that none of us should really care about anything that doesn't directly affect us. Doing away with or putting into practice gay marriage and abortion doesn't really affect me at all......but it doesn't mean that i'm not entitled to an opinion or concern on the matter.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Shinerbock is right. It doesn't have to affect him directly for him to have an opinion and concern.

Well, you know what "they" say about opinions... I am not asking for an opinion, I really want to know what his thinking, the epistemology of his thinking, how come he really thinks that. I could care less about his opinion.

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Following your logic none of us should support affirmative action initiatives, EEOC, or social welfare programs if we've never knowingly been at the receiving end of discrimination or hardship based on race, class, and/or gender. Of course most of us are or have been targets for discrimination at some level based on race, class and/or gender so not being conscious of that fact doesn't erase it.

I fail to see how I came to that logic. That is your logic and that makes you putting words into my mouth. I am not asking why, I am asking how. End result. Based on what I am seeing in health care disparities alone dictates in the 3 states I have resided in suggests the outcomes of ending affirmative action or choices to attend school... Right now, the way I see it, the end of affirmative action causes massive increases in poor health outcomes. The rate of occurrence is within 2 years. All historical ethnic and immigrant groups regardless of income status. Also, holds true for disabled persons.

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

In your defense, I believe you are essentially saying that people shouldn't be so passionate about eliminating affirmative action just because a relatively small number of white people across the country claim reverse-discrimination. So unless the anti-AffAct whites can PROVE that they are one of the relatively few who have been passed up for a less qualified minority applicant, or there's evidence to suggest a high probability of that occuring, what's the issue? Afraid of the status quo crumbling and no longer being able to opportunity hoard? Whites are still the majority and there is no real threat of whites' missing out of opportunities because of the existence of affirmative action. White males are still at the top of most companies (which has some benefit for white women just like gender-based affirmative action does) and most work environments and promotion opportunities across the country are almost exclusively white.

I think I am saying something different. I think people in the majority, mainly whites and some Asians, should be passionate about ending Affirmative Action.

Really, this issue all boils down to money and who is making it and why.

As long as little Black boys are running in those games, then that is why they need to be admitted. Oh the fear that these same kids desire to become a physician or engineer to not only better themselves but also their communities...

The look are the misperceived "balance of power". Let's call it like we see it. Most folks who ending college admissions affirmative action would affect are Hispanic/Latinos. African Americans and Native Americans are a non-factor (<1%-3%) in some states... And you may as well forget the disabled in those numbers.

Folks are not really as to why "they" dislike Affirmative Action.

Well, the repercussions are not giving a dayum about a sector or population that becomes a public health hazard and we all, humanity, have to "clean it up".

The ravages of Hurricane Katrina tells you what happens when you actively fail to give ALL people a chance...

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

The ravages of Hurricane Katrina tells you what happens when you actively fail to give ALL people a chance...

What does this have to do with anything?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Well, you know what "they" say about opinions... I am not asking for an opinion, I really want to know what his thinking, the epistemology of his thinking, how come he really thinks that. I could care less about his opinion.

If you're asking for shinerbock to articulate a sophisticated methodology in determining why he feels affirmative action should be eliminated, he probably will not be able to do so. When people oppose affirmative action for the reasons that he does, it isn't about some measurable outcome or socially significant negative effect of affirmative action.

Then again, a less presumptuous approach to epistemology is similar to the standpoint epistemology that Patricia Hill Collins and others wrote about. Everyone comes with a particular standpoint that shapes their perceptions, opinions, research design, and so forth. He told you his opinion which translates to how he came to know what he knows (epistemology) within the context of what he knows. You don't agree with his opinion and you never will, but you can't dismiss it as unsubstantiated fluff when he has clearly said why he thinks what he thinks.

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

I fail to see how I came to that logic. That is your logic and that makes you putting words into my mouth. I am not asking why, I am asking how. End result. Based on what I am seeing in health care disparities alone dictates in the 3 states I have resided in suggests the outcomes of ending affirmative action or choices to attend school... Right now, the way I see it, the end of affirmative action causes massive increases in poor health outcomes. The rate of occurrence is within 2 years. All historical ethnic and immigrant groups regardless of income status. Also, holds true for disabled persons.

I think I am saying something different. I think people in the majority, mainly whites and some Asians, should be passionate about ending Affirmative Action.

Really, this issue all boils down to money and who is making it and why.

As long as little Black boys are running in those games, then that is why they need to be admitted. Oh the fear that these same kids desire to become a physician or engineer to not only better themselves but also their communities...

The look are the misperceived "balance of power". Let's call it like we see it. Most folks who ending college admissions affirmative action would affect are Hispanic/Latinos. African Americans and Native Americans are a non-factor (<1%-3%) in some states... And you may as well forget the disabled in those numbers.

Folks are not really as to why "they" dislike Affirmative Action.

Well, the repercussions are not giving a dayum about a sector or population that becomes a public health hazard and we all, humanity, have to "clean it up".

The ravages of Hurricane Katrina tells you what happens when you actively fail to give ALL people a chance...

No one is trying to put words in your mouth. I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and help you to communicate your points.

It reads like you are saying something similar to what I'm saying but in a different, perhaps less coherent, way. Yes, majority groups should be in opposition if it threatens their opportunity hoarding--if they don't come from a utilitarian framework. No, majority groups should not be in opposition just because of some assumed and socially insignificant negative outcome (if they can't explain WHY AffAct should be done away with, it shouldn't be done away with and opponents should go on about their business because why a black man got into some university typically will not affect them anyway).

[shinerbock]

I saw no indication that you were asking me for my rationale in deciding affirmative action should end. If thats what you want, say so, and after this semester ends I'll be glad to respond...