State of the Union

[Rudey]

Do I need to stab myself in the kidney to know knives can hurt? No I'd rather just assume it will. Now that we're done with the useless banter.

Teacher's unions have made it incredibly difficult to get rid of bad teachers. While there are some teachers who are dedicated to the profession, more and more get in because that was the only thing available to them. Who holds them accountable?

If you create a competitive situation where better schools can be easily identified, students will be able to identify them and head in that direction - assuming their parents are involved.

Not saying that all teachers and systems are like this but MANY of them are.

-Rudey
--Oh hey why don't I make 45K, work a 9 to 5, have incredible job protection, and get an entire summer off because that'd be wonderful.

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Ever been a teacher, Rudey?

My wife taught high school for a few years and worked her butt off, about 12 hrs. a day during the week and four or five hours on each weekend day between lesson plans and grading papers, etc.

Her father was on a school board, and her grandfather on the state school board.

The only complaint I ever heard from them about this was when the Federal or State government mandated programs, but gave them no funds to implement them.

If you are lucky and your district is able to pass bond issues, etc., that's not so bad, but when you're in a poor district that votes all of those issues down -- educations suffers.

It makes zero sense to me to punish a school that is below standards (whatever "standards" are) by taking away it's funds. That's counterproductive in the worst way. It just makes the school worse. It also punishes the good students in those schools.

[AGDee]

And how does a school district that has 80% of it's students below poverty level, malnutritioned with large classes attract good teachers? What teacher in their right mind would take a job at a district that is full of students who will underperform on standardized tests, knowing that the schools' funding will be just continue to decrease? Who will teach the mentally impaired if their raises depend on kids performing at a level which is impossible for them to achieve?

Dee

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Rudey
Do I need to stab myself in the kidney to know knives can hurt? No I'd rather just assume it will. Now that we're done with the useless banter.

--Oh hey why don't I make 45K, work a 9 to 5, have incredible job protection, and get an entire summer off because that'd be wonderful.

Regarding the kidney...Huh?

Regarding the second, around here that $45K would probably require a Masters and a lot of experience. If fact, I think I'll look that up. I'll let you know if I'm off base.

Teaching is not a 9-5 job. Unless you never give homework or tests and don't do lesson plans.

Our elementary and some middle schools are year-round these days. About the same amount of time off, but not all at once.

I think it's tenure more than unions that make it difficult to get rid of "bad" teachers -- and I will readily admit there are some of those. Thankfully, a lot of school systems have gotten rid of the tenure system.

Finally, there isn't enough money to make me put up with what teachers in some schools do today.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by AGDee
And how does a school district that has 80% of it's students below poverty level, malnutritioned with large classes attract good teachers? What teacher in their right mind would take a job at a district that is full of students who will underperform on standardized tests, knowing that the schools' funding will be just continue to decrease? Who will teach the mentally impaired if their raises depend on kids performing at a level which is impossible for them to achieve?

Dee

Not everyone needs an education.

-Rudey
--Controversial

[ZTAngel]

Originally posted by AGDee
And how does a school district that has 80% of it's students below poverty level, malnutritioned with large classes attract good teachers?

I'm not sure if any other county does it but Broward County, FL has something called a "Hazard Bonus". Basically, any teacher willing to teach at a school that is an "F" school in the not-so-good part of town is awarded this bonus upon signing. Not sure of the $ amount but I know of quite a few people who took up Broward County's offer.

[sugar and spice]

Where in the hell do teachers work 9 to 5?

The ones at my high school, at least, worked from 6 or 7 in the morning until 4 or 5 without even taking into account grading papers or working on lesson plans. People who say that teachers are paid adequately because they get summers "off" (which is not entirely the truth) don't take into the account that no teacher works an 8-hour day. I would guess that for many of them, 12 hours is a minimum.

A lot of the teachers at my school had two jobs or took on extra responsibility at the school (coaching track, working as the night school principal) in order to make enough to support their families -- and that doesn't even take summer jobs into account.

These days you don't go into teaching unless you love it because it's a job that is underpaid, overworked, extremely frustrating and possibly dangerous.

As for standardized tests, I don't agree that they're useless -- there was a girl in Louisiana, I think, who was valedictorian of her class yet could not pass the state's exam for minimum competency in math, yet her math teachers were giving her A's anyway. That kind of thing needs to be caught so the problems can be addressed and fixed. But I'm in complete agreement that test results should not dictate funding. You cannot expect an "inner city" Chicago school to perform at the same level as New Trier. That's effin' ridiculous.

I just read Class Struggle: What's Wrong (and Right) with America's Best Public High Schools and it addressed a lot of these issues. Its main focus was how to take programs that have succeeded at places like New Trier, Scarsdale, Greeley, La Jolla, Highland Park and their ilk, and put them in place in schools that perform lower on tests. I think some of the solutions are overly simplistic and fail to address the fact that usually schools that perform lower have totally different problems and issues than schools that perform higher, but it's an interesting read even so.

[Rudey]

The comment about having to stab myself to know what it feels like is like you saying I should be a teacher to know what goes on.

I don't know how many schools are year-round but I don't think it's the majority. Do you know? I know for sure several really large states (States that matter...not big square ones in the middle of nowhere) do not have year-round. So that's a 2-3 month vacation combined.

Maybe it's not 45K where you live because the cost of living is lower. I'm sure a banker would get paid less in Colorado. Here is a sampling of salaries from 1995 in Chicago with low costs of living:

Average Salary for Various Occupations
(Including benefits. Figures for 1995.)

Illinois Teachers
Average salary without benefits $36,874
Salary adjusted for hours worked 56,948
Adjusted salary plus benefits 68,338
Accounting
Accountant, small firm 36,500
Accountant, Big Six firm 38,625
Senior auditor 42,500
Senior tax accountant 55,300
Architecture
Architect 35,000
Architect, principal/partner 50,000
Engineering
Civil engineer 62,000
Electrical engineer 65,876
Mechanical engineer 65,160
Financial Services
Actuary 36,914
Loan officer, mortgage 54,600
Loan officer, commercial 71,000
Health Care
Registered nurse 39,800
Licensed physical therapist 45,400
Information Services
Systems analyst 44,026
Database specialist 45,193
Software engineer 54,470
Hardware engineer 54,704
Manufacturing
Foreman 40,300
Purchasing agent 52,800
Warehouse manager 53,600
Director of engineering 74,400
Media
Newspaper reporter 24,127
TV news reporter 30,400
Magazine senior editor 41,900
Source: Justin Martin, "How Does Your Pay Really Stack Up?" Fortune, June 26, 1995, pp. 82-86.

When it comes to those lesson plans, a lot of it follows books, a lot is reused from year to year. When it comes to exams, if it really takes you a million hours to grade simple exams then you shouldn't be a teacher in my opinion. Many exams were actually multiple choice and graded easily with scantron machines.

Too bad teachers are ruined by a few bad apples. Tenure usually comes as a result of unions that fight for them so I'm not sure why you said it's tenure and not unions. Oh and hey, Sam Peltzman (brilliant professor from Chicago) did a state-by-state study "of the period of greatest decline in student test scores, 1972 - 1981, and found that the decline in student performance was deepest in those states whose legislatures were most responsive to teachers unions and in which the American Federation of Teachers scored its earliest success". In the 1980s, Peltzman found "an unambiguously negative association of union growth and school performance."

-Rudey

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Regarding the kidney...Huh?

Regarding the second, around here that $45K would probably require a Masters and a lot of experience. If fact, I think I'll look that up. I'll let you know if I'm off base.

Teaching is not a 9-5 job. Unless you never give homework or tests and don't do lesson plans.

Our elementary and some middle schools are year-round these days. About the same amount of time off, but not all at once.

I think it's tenure more than unions that make it difficult to get rid of "bad" teachers -- and I will readily admit there are some of those. Thankfully, a lot of school systems have gotten rid of the tenure system.

Finally, there isn't enough money to make me put up with what teachers in some schools do today.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Regarding the second, around here that $45K would probably require a Masters and a lot of experience. If fact, I think I'll look that up. I'll let you know if I'm off base.

Here a first-year teacher's salary wouldn't exceed $30K, and salaries top out around $60K -- like you said, those are for teachers with at least a masters and a good 25-30 years of experience.

I just looked around for the average teacher salary in Wisconsin and it looks like it's just shy of 40K. National average is just short of $45K, though obviously it depends on the state. California is first, I think, with around $54K as an average. The lower ranking states average around $30K.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Here a first-year teacher's salary wouldn't exceed $30K, and salaries top out around $60K -- like you said, those are for teachers with at least a masters and a good 25-30 years of experience.

I just looked around for the average teacher salary in Wisconsin and it looks like it's just shy of 40K. National average is just short of $45K, though obviously it depends on the state. California is first, I think, with around $54K as an average. The lower ranking states average around $30K.

Don't forget the great benefits. They tend to boost that just a tad bit.

-Rudey

[DeltAlum]

I just took a quick look on the web, and a beginning teacher in Colorado (state wide average) is just above $30K. The average teachers salary in Colorado is $40K and change. Colorado ranks 25th in the nation in teachers pay.

Here's a link to an article in the Denver Business Journal which points out a few additional problems caused by low teachers pay.

My favorite thought from it is that (roughly quoted) "teachers don't teach for the money, but they leave for the lack of it."

http://denver.bizjournals.com/denver...y5.html?page=1

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Rudey
Don't forget the great benefits. They tend to boost that just a tad bit.

-Rudey

Point taken. Benefits for teachers here -- insurance, retirement are pretty good.

But other jobs can say the same thing.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

My friend is a teacher. She said the salary itself isn't great. The benefits, retirement package, and summers off make up for the salary. She has nice students in a good school. She has a problem with the new department of education, but that is a local issue.

[ZTAngel]

Originally posted by Rudey
Don't forget the great benefits. They tend to boost that just a tad bit.

-Rudey

Oh, I definitely agree with that. Teacher retirement, insurance, holiday and vacation benefits are top-notch. But, many companies offer that to their employees after they've worked there for a little while. I don't think most people go into teaching for the benefits...at least I hope not.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ZTAngel
Oh, I definitely agree with that. Teacher retirement, insurance, holiday and vacation benefits are top-notch. But, many companies offer that to their employees after they've worked there for a little while. I don't think most people go into teaching for the benefits...at least I hope not.

Like Enron.

-Rudey

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Originally posted by ZTAngel
Oh, I definitely agree with that. Teacher retirement, insurance, holiday and vacation benefits are top-notch. But, many companies offer that to their employees after they've worked there for a little while. I don't think most people go into teaching for the benefits...at least I hope not.

A few years ago, NYC was looking for teachers. Many people just out of college signed up. Many people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s signed up also including someone I know. He said the great benefits and retirement package was one of the reasons. A lot of the people he met in the program said that was a big reason. He also wanted to make a difference in the lives of children.