Oprah's On: Town Hall Meeting: Imus Controversy: Now What?

[Proverbs31]

Originally posted by Professor
I'm certainly with you on God's unmerited favor. However, Kirk has been going through this for 20 years or more. He is a man I have listened to for inspiration. His songs or praise gave me hope, joy, understanding. Now, I learn he is a sex freak. To me, I may as well consider buying a gospel cd from dirty kim - sorry, little kim.

Wow. So if you feel this way, you might as well not listen to gospel music anymore, or go to church, or fellowship with other Christians. Because every last one of these people has sinned. There is no hierarchy of sin in God's eyes, sin is sin. But the good news is that God forgives us of our transgressions. So for you to pass judgement on him for a past addiction, that God has delivered him from, has me a bit confused.

but to each his own...

[Professor]

i'm not passing judgment. i'm expressing an opinion. my conscious would not allow me travel throughout the us and abroad for 20 years or more confessing to be christ like when i know i'm addicted to porn and sex. i'm glad god has delivered him and i know god is the one whom kirk will have to answer. i did not buy into him feeling convicted for 20 + plus years cause he kept on doing his thing. if i accept your view, i guess you discount anything your pastor do/does and have the mindset "he" is only a man. i say to each his own.

Originally posted by Proverbs31
Wow. So if you feel this way, you might as well not listen to gospel music anymore, or go to church, or fellowship with other Christians. Because every last one of these people has sinned. There is no hierarchy of sin in God's eyes, sin is sin. But the good news is that God forgives us of our transgressions. So for you to pass judgement on him for a past addiction, that God has delivered him from, has me a bit confused.

but to each his own...

[TonyB06]

This is an interesting debate. I didn't see Oprah so don't know all the details of what was said. I just see Kirk Franklin as the "latest" imperfect person God is using to reach people. The Bible is full of flawed, broken people who did great and extraordinary things -- David, Solomon, Paul and the list goes on.

It's a hard thing to judge the contents of a person's heart, or even to understand why people do the things we do. As I understand it, Kirk's admission was unprompted, that is, he wasn't found out by anyone but came forward. I take that as a sincere expression, and still view him as a man of Godly use.

[CrimsonTide4]

Originally posted by TonyB06
This is an interesting debate. I didn't see Oprah so don't know all the details of what was said. I just see Kirk Franklin as the "latest" imperfect person God is using to reach people. The Bible is full of flawed, broken people who did great and extraordinary things -- David, Solomon, Paul and the list goes on.

It's a hard thing to judge the contents of a person's heart, or even to understand why people do the things we do. As I understand it, Kirk's admission was unprompted, that is, he wasn't found out by anyone but came forward. I take that as a sincere expression, and still view him as a man of Godly use.

Tony, I love you. You better print this out too.

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by Professor
i'm not passing judgment. i'm expressing an opinion. my conscious would not allow me travel throughout the us and abroad for 20 years or more confessing to be christ like when i know i'm addicted to porn and sex. i'm glad god has delivered him and i know god is the one whom kirk will have to answer. i did not buy into him feeling convicted for 20 + plus years cause he kept on doing his thing. if i accept your view, i guess you discount anything your pastor do/does and have the mindset "he" is only a man. i say to each his own.

I watched the interview as well and really enjoyed it. I had heard Kirk briefly speak on his addiction on some TBN show previously, but not to this depth.

I agree with much of what the previous posters have said (CT4, Proverbs, Urbanized Skillz). Addiction and shoot, sin period, has a powerful pull. Wasn't it Paul who said "That what I would do, I do not, that what I shouldn't do, I do. Oh wretched man that I am!"? (badly paraphrased--I'll find the correct scripture) I think Paul spoke for every honest believer in that scripture because I think we have all said "I will never" to something and then ended up doing it, and feeling convicted about it. It could be as small as eating that extra peice of cake, to giving someone a piece of your mind, to yes, porn. The sin is all the same. That's why God gives us the opportunity to repent. If it was as easy as feeling convicted and automatically being released from certain stuff...whooh....let's just say I would not be typing this (while I am at work).

I would not discount anything that my pastor or any man of God does, but I do think it is about the mindset. Are they unrepentant in their sin? Justifying it and trying to make it like it was alright? The case I can think about most readily is Henry Lyons. When the whole deal with the other woman and the house and the money came out, he did not seem like he was repentant at all (TO ME) I know I can't truly judge him, only God can do that, but God did say to try the spirit by the spirit and that we will know them by their fruit and while I don't know his heart, I can say that I didn't see to much "sorry" fruit coming from him. He might be different now, I don't know.

Kirk Franklin did not have to share this with anyone, like someone else said, I appreciate his honesty. This tape should become required viewing in Men's Ministry meeting all over the place.

My husband used to get this Christian magazine called New Man and I remember reading an article that said one of the major hotel chains (can't remember if it was Hilton or Mariott) LOVED when there were Christian conventions because their pay-per-view usage fees for porn would skyrocket. It's a whole lotta folks doing stuff in the dark.

[Professor]

Sellout - lol - you're just trying to get in with the ladies.

Originally posted by TonyB06
This is an interesting debate. I didn't see Oprah so don't know all the details of what was said. I just see Kirk Franklin as the "latest" imperfect person God is using to reach people. The Bible is full of flawed, broken people who did great and extraordinary things -- David, Solomon, Paul and the list goes on.

It's a hard thing to judge the contents of a person's heart, or even to understand why people do the things we do. As I understand it, Kirk's admission was unprompted, that is, he wasn't found out by anyone but came forward. I take that as a sincere expression, and still view him as a man of Godly use.

[CrimsonTide4]

Originally posted by Eclipse
I watched the interview as well and really enjoyed it. I had heard Kirk briefly speak on his addiction on some TBN show previously, but not to this depth.

I agree with much of what the previous posters have said (CT4, Proverbs, Urbanized Skillz). Addiction and shoot, sin period, has a powerful pull. Wasn't it Paul who said "That what I would do, I do not, that what I shouldn't do, I do. Oh wretched man that I am!"? (badly paraphrased--I'll find the correct scripture) I think Paul spoke for every honest believer in that scripture because I think we have all said "I will never" to something and then ended up doing it, and feeling convicted about it. It could be as small as eating that extra peice of cake, to giving someone a piece of your mind, to yes, porn. The sin is all the same. That's why God gives us the opportunity to repent. If it was as easy as feeling convicted and automatically being released from certain stuff...whooh....let's just say I would not be typing this (while I am at work).

I would not discount anything that my pastor or any man of God does, but I do think it is about the mindset. Are they unrepentant in their sin? Justifying it and trying to make it like it was alright? The case I can think about most readily is Henry Lyons. When the whole deal with the other woman and the house and the money came out, he did not seem like he was repentant at all (TO ME) I know I can't truly judge him, only God can do that, but God did say to try the spirit by the spirit and that we will know them by their fruit and while I don't know his heart, I can say that I didn't see to much "sorry" fruit coming from him. He might be different now, I don't know.

Kirk Franklin did not have to share this with anyone, like someone else said, I appreciate his honesty. This tape should become required viewing in Men's Ministry meeting all over the place.

My husband used to get this Christian magazine called New Man and I remember reading an article that said one of the major hotel chains (can't remember if it was Hilton or Mariott) LOVED when there were Christian conventions because their pay-per-view usage fees for porn would skyrocket. It's a whole lotta folks doing stuff in the dark.

I love you too.

And regarding the fornicating pastor, I did not date him because I did not want to be in agreement with his sin -- having sex with him when I know what the Bible says, etc. We also discussed Paul, Eclipse.

Eclipse, I've heard similar to what that article said.

I wonder how many pastors this Sunday will admit their struggles, not just porn, but anything they have struggled with.

[btb87]

Originally posted by CrimsonTide4
Tony, I love you. You better print this out too.

I know. . . ain't he just the sweetest thang????

But I agree. I commend Kirk and Tammy for coming forward with that - I know it took a lot of courage to do so. I also realize that of course everyone isn't on the same page spiritually, and took notice of the statement that O directed to the counselor - "This isn't something that you can pray your way out of. . .". Now if Kirk had taken time to answer that, that could have been a whole 'nother show. Maybe SHE can't pray her way out of it, but the Bible does state that ". . . this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. . .". And what God does, he does well.

But that's a whole 'nother topic. . .

[CrimsonTide4]

Originally posted by btb87
I know. . . ain't he just the sweetest thang????

But I agree. I commend Kirk and Tammy for coming forward with that - I know it took a lot of courage to do so. I also realize that of course everyone isn't on the same page spiritually, and took notice of the statement that O directed to the counselor - "This isn't something that you can pray your way out of. . .". Now if Kirk had taken time to answer that, that could have been a whole 'nother show. Maybe SHE can't pray her way out of it, but the Bible does state that ". . . this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. . .". And what God does, he does well.

But that's a whole 'nother topic. . .

BTB, when Oprah said that I almost died. I said chiiiiiiiiile, you need to go sat down somewhere. I think Kirk did reply though to that and stated that there was prayer involved for him. I know Kirk had to pray on that addiction.

[btb87]

Originally posted by CrimsonTide4
I wonder how many pastors this Sunday will admit their struggles, not just porn, but anything they have struggled with.

How many ain't trying to admit it and will continue doing it as long as "nobody knows"? CTfo' I wasn't directing this question at you, but just thinking out loud because of a situation that I'm familiar with.

I'm sure that there are many that struggle with things that no one knows about and are trying to do the right thing, but there are others that are comfortable in their sins and aren't trying to do anything about them.

Sorry - just kinda hit close to home.

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by btb87
I know. . . ain't he just the sweetest thang????

I also realize that of course everyone isn't on the same page spiritually, and took notice of the statement that O directed to the counselor - "This isn't something that you can pray your way out of. . .". Now if Kirk had taken time to answer that, that could have been a whole 'nother show. Maybe SHE can't pray her way out of it, but the Bible does state that ". . . this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. . .". And what God does, he does well.

But that's a whole 'nother topic. . .

Girl, you betta preach! God can and does deliver! People need to understand that God delivers in many ways though. Just like he heals some people of body ailments through doctors and others miraculously, he also heals these "mind and spirit" ailments through trained specialists (therapist and the like) and miraculously as well.

re Tony: don't cha just wanna hug him sometimes???

[CrimsonTide4]

Originally posted by btb87
How many ain't trying to admit it and will continue doing it as long as "nobody knows"? CTfo' I wasn't directing this question at you, but just thinking out loud because of a situation that I'm familiar with.

I'm sure that there are many that struggle with things that no one knows about and are trying to do the right thing, but there are others that are comfortable in their sins and aren't trying to do anything about them.

Sorry - just kinda hit close to home.

I know that it wasn't meant for me, but it is so true. Every year a scandal breaks out about a well known religious/spiritual leader. Folks get all up in arms and then others want to say see that's why I don't go to church and the whole nine.

I agree w/ your 2nd paragraph. I immediately thought of Passa Touch Hips.

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by CrimsonTide4
I love you too.

And regarding the fornicating pastor, I did not date him because I did not want to be in agreement with his sin -- having sex with him when I know what the Bible says, etc. We also discussed Paul, Eclipse.

Eclipse, I've heard similar to what that article said.

I wonder how many pastors this Sunday will admit their struggles, not just porn, but anything they have struggled with.

Awww......

Not just for you CT, but here is the scripture I was thinking about. It's from Romans 7. Gotta love Biblegateway.
As usual, I jacked it all up: (NIV version for ease of reading)

15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

I know some pastors who will discuss what they have been delivered from (have heard pastors speak on drugs, fornication, spousal abuse,etc) but most will not speak on current sins, which I guess I kinda understand, that probably needs to be handled in a more discreet setting.

I do recall hearing a pastor (Jeffery Johnson from Eastern Star in Indy) talk about him and his wife fussing on the way to church one morning (and he was wrong as 2 left shoes!) and I wanted to get up and dance the holy dance! I thought me and my husband had to be the only Christians in America who did that! His real-ness meant a lot to me. He also said "it ain't right, but it's real". 'Course, he wasn't at his home church, but I have heard he does the same thing there too.

[stardusttwin]

Originally posted by Professor
i'm not passing judgment. i'm expressing an opinion. my conscious would not allow me travel throughout the us and abroad for 20 years or more confessing to be christ like when i know i'm addicted to porn and sex. i'm glad god has delivered him and i know god is the one whom kirk will have to answer. i did not buy into him feeling convicted for 20 + plus years cause he kept on doing his thing. if i accept your view, i guess you discount anything your pastor do/does and have the mindset "he" is only a man. i say to each his own.

YOU couldn't do it because you sound like a mature Christian who is aware of how your actions should always reflect your thoughts and deeds. I don't know if you've always been where you are today but this is not about YOUR walk but Kirk's walk.

As Kirk started to become more AWARE of how his actions were in conflict with what he was doing he looked for counseling. The pastor that was counseling Kirk (& it was not just when he was 14) condoned his pornography. That's why he was conflicted cause how he was being counseled and how he was feeling didn't match. The fact that he is acknowleding this publicly just makes him more human to me (but it also points out how important it is to study the Word AND be more willing to question your leaders if they are steering you in a wrong way.)

While I was about to knock Oprah out for some of her comments she did make one great point there is a LOT of hypocrisy in the church. Kirk may take a hit from some fans who are too holy to deal with the fact that the man is not perfect but he will gain more from those who will get that testimonies come in all shapes and sizes.

There is a difference between having an ACTIVE testimony and being a straight up hypocrite. We have to discern between someone who is dealing with their issues and the false prophets who are spitting out bible verses and making money in God's name. Just because you've passed one test or have made the choice to be saved and doing God's work doesn't mean you will forever be left alone and all the sinning will be done by the unsaved. Its those that are saved that are constantly being tested (or targeted with temptations).

Everyone's walk is different. To make it more neutral - some people can quit smoking just by deciding they aren't going to do it anymore - some people quit numerous times before it sticks. It doesn't make the person who quit after the first time better just different - in the end they should both be healthier for thier new choice NOT to smoke anymore.

[UrbanizdSkillz]

Originally posted by btb87
I also realize that of course everyone isn't on the same page spiritually, and took notice of the statement that O directed to the counselor - "This isn't something that you can pray your way out of. . .". Now if Kirk had taken time to answer that, that could have been a whole 'nother show. Maybe SHE can't pray her way out of it, but the Bible does state that ". . . this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. . .". And what God does, he does well.

But that's a whole 'nother topic. . . [/B]

Lawd, BTB, I almost fell out when she said that. Made me want to grab my oil and throw it at the TV Screen. I was SO proud when Kirk fired back and told O and the conselor that "that wasn't my experience." I was like YES KIRK! Tell HER! Because I know for myself that the prayers of the righteous man availeth much!

But again, that's a whole 'nother topic.