What's wrong with the black female?

[DoggyStyle82]

Lady AKA and Jazbri: a man learns to treat a woman by how he sees the women that he loves being treated. A boy that grows up in an environment that devalues or mistreats women, will surely do the same. If he hears and sees his mother, sister, aunts being called a ho or bitch without begging to differ will continue the pattern. A boy must see a woman being treated like a queen by a man that he respects. If he views them as they are treated in popular culture or as male misogynists view them, their is little hope. Women rarely succeed in teaching men how to love and treat women because it is always from a females perspective. Men raised in such a way are less misogynistic but usually are spoiled and practice forms of mental crulety or have responsibilty issues. Its a catch 22, but I and my 3 brothers learned how to treat a black woman from observing how our father dealt with our mother, with respect and love, but always as a man who knows that he needs his woman to make his life whole.

[lluvmook98]

jazbri,

I hear you. I just want to clarify one thing. I realized that you aren't a man and can not say what a man is. But you made clear your stance on a woman's role so I was wondering what your personal opinion was about the man's role. I did not expect for you to interpret for them.

[jazbri]

lluvmook98,

I'm sorry... I don't quite understand your clarification. What do you mean when you state that you didn't expect for me to interpret for them? I attempted to answer the question obviously from a female perspective.

[MissDiamond]

To answer the original question, There isn't a dam thing wrong with black women. I am completely shocked to come in here and read some of the non-sense I see posted. I can not FATHOM why I am the only woman that have found "Why Are Black Women Scaring Off Their Men?" to be disguting and completely chauvinistic? Contrary to what the author of this ridiculous piece or writing wants us to believe, this was, without a doubt, written by a man. I will not believe a black woman would put such self-degrading absurdity out for the world to see.
Jazbri, dear, sister...it seems that you have bought into this foolish ideology. Black women have worked too hard and too long to have the right to vote, the right to an education, the right to be equal (and potentially superior) to our male counterparts. PLEASE do not attempt to tear it all down with this kind of thinking.
Black Women, please do not lower your standard, or give up your goals and dreams so that some black men with low self-esteems, inferiority complexes and identity problems can feel better about themselves!
Sisters let's not regress! Black men make a conscious decision to date outside of their race...don't allow them or anyone else to shift the blame to us. In the words of Maya Angelou "...it has nothing to do with you, and EVERYTHING to do with the other person (in this case, the black male)...your not in it...take yourself completely out of the situation." It is our job to love, respect and be there for our black men...it is not our job to keep them pleased at all costs, even if it means limiting ourselves and our personal acheivments. Go out there and get those Masters degrees and PhDs, you'll still have good black men (independent and secure within themselves) that will be right by your side. Don't worry yourselves with those who choose to date exclusively out of their race. Ladies, believe me, any black man that would do that wouldn't be worth much of your time anyway.
Forgive the long post, but I can not stand to hear black woman put themselves down like this. How can we be expected to uplift our black kings if we're not allowed to uplift ourselves first.
Jazbri, are you suggesting that maybe if Black women don't try to strive for the highest, quality eduaction and don't be so active in their communities and instead we make sure there's a big pot of collad greens and neckbones on the stove when our black men get home...maybe, just maybe we can compete with the white woman for their affections. I don't, for a minute, think so!

And if we do sacrifice for the sake of their happiness, what are they going to sacrifice for us? WOULD they do it for us? Wake up and smell the Cappuccino's honey, this is not the way to go.

Another thought, if black men are leaving us because we're strong, independent, and goal oriented and won't tolerate being stepped on and used...........What is this saying about white women?

I welcome any and all responses.


[This message has been edited by MissDiamond (edited October 17, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by MissDiamond (edited October 17, 2000).]

[jazbri]

Dear Miss Diamond,

I've been expecting the thread of your response. My initial reaction to the first e-mail in regards to the black male turning to non-black females was mirrored in yours. With some honest soul searching along with observing my sister friends, I began to see not only the fallibility in his viewpoints but in mine as well. I feel that it's completely wrong for him to justify his seeking someone outside of his race based on the negative experiences he's had with black women. My question (which apparently you find to be subservient and degrading) is to analyze me (the black woman). I found many things 'wrong' (for lack of a better term) with me as well as my peers. I haven't 'bought' into any ideologies. I have, however, been a shoulder to cry on and have cried on my share of shoulders trying to identify what it is that I'm doing wrong. Let me state that our men are definitely not blameless nor are they without issues themselves. My focus, however, is on me (the black woman). So what part (and this is key) am 'I' playing in reducing me to tears on my girlfriends' shoulders? In not one instance am I a proponent for "giving up my dreams and goals" so that black men with low self-esteems, inferiority complexes, and identity problems can better themselves. Nor do I feel the writer is a proponent of that 'foolish ideology'. In a sense you're solidifying my point. Some women feel that if they concede or if they compromise in a relationship they feel that they are being submissive. Some women feel that if they hold their tongue and 'pick their battles' they're allowing their men to get over on them! Some women feel that if they choose the man that may not have all of the very same credentials they themselves have, they are somehow settling. I recognize these characteristics within myself and my peers. I can only speak on something if I've experienced. After a failed marriage, I can only say that I must shoulder my portion of the wrong.

I salute and am eternally grateful for my sisters and bruthas who have led the struggle so that I am able to vote, to work in corporate America, to be able to attain that PhD, JD, MBA, to be considered beautiful contrary to popular belief and am now gracing the covers of Vogue, Cosmopolitan, etc. I also thank God everyday for a Nana who has instilled in me to be gracious and to always be a lady! I thank my father who raised me to be independent and strong.
MissDiamond, I simply choose not to be 'potentially superior' to my black male counterpart. I simply want to be his Queen, his helpmate, his calm in all of the chaos. I suppose that's the least popular position to take apparently when you look at the divorce rate in our community alone. One final disclaimer, I recognize that our black men have many areas of improvement to be spotlighted as well. But my question wasn't for them, it was for us...

[Shelacious]

Both Miss Diamond and Jazbri bring valid comments. I never got the impression that we were advocating a subservient role regarding our relationship with our men. My perspective was in looking at how we may overlook "the good man" because of some archaic theories about the "package" the "good man" should be in. Indeed, I have no desire to walk two steps behind my man, but I do not have the desire to walk two steps ahead of him either. I want to walk side-by-side, arm-in-arm as we walk through this life together.

The issue becomes, though, is "what do I consider equivalent? Equivalent doesn’t mean he must have identical education, salary and job responsibilities as myself. I think how we define equivalence is where we sometimes do a disservice to ourselves. I may make more money than my honey, for example, but he may be a better cook, so he's got responsibility for the kitchen. He may be a better money manager. I'm not looking for a Mr. Mom at all, but I would expect us to be equal in what we bring to the relationship in terms of time or dedication of talents. That's why I'm able to date a man who is a "good man" but is not bringing mega bucks or a Ph.D. (although he is getting his Masters) to the table--he has other qualities that balance out my own shortcomings. Of course the other side of the coin is that the brother needs to also be comfortable with the fact that he is not the primary breadwinner in the relationship, and that what he contributes to the relationship are not all the traditional things men are used to bringing. Some men can't handle that and may resent the woman for “usurping” his “natural” position. The key is for both men and women to not allow the breadwinner or educational issues to bring too much power into the relationship. Yes, earning the money is important, but I cannot “lord that over him” and negate his contributions as “less” than my own or vice versa. I have to be willing to appreciate the fact that while different, his contributions are just as important as the money I bring in. If I can’t do that, or if he cannot, our relationship is doomed to fail.


------------------
Finer Womanhood: the "Cat's Meow" Since 1920

[lluvmook98]

I'm sure that most of you will be relieved that I am removing myself from the discussion. But first...

Jazbri,
The clarification was because you stated in one of your response that you are not a man so you can't answer what the male's role is but you can only say what you want in a man. So I was just clarifying that I did not expect you to answer from the male point of view but what YOU think their ROLE should be. Not how you want them to treat you. I realize that most women want a loyal, honest respectful etc. man. But what do you think that he should do not just be. For example you said things about a woman's domestic roles, I was just wondering what you expected of a man. That was all. No sarcastism on my part. Just trying to understand your perspective.

Secondly,
I can see both sides I guess I just wanted to be clear that everyone involved in the discussion did not feel that somehow all of the problems in Black relationships fall on the shoulders of women. While I do think that some women take the we are equal thing too far I think that many men don't take it seriously enough. I like MissDiamond am just concerned that women not feel that they are the only ones in relationships that need to bend. I often use the "I want to be his queen example." When I do I remind women and men that a queen is treasured just as much as a king. Maybe differently but treasured all the same.
It scares me when I see women so pressed to have a man and equate a man with happiness that they degrade themselves as humans. I want to do for my fiance but not because I need to keep him or do it to make him happy as a slave might his master but because OUR collective happiness is based upon pleasing each other.
Men and often women think that the only sacrifice is to be made by women. It is a huge sacrifice to the man if he does not cheat. But the woman had better not cheat, cook, have constant wonderful sex, give him healthy kids, work, make money (but not more than him) and massage his ego.
It frightens me to think that many women feel that they are happy if their man is happy. That all depends upon what you both agree is acceptable. I know of a man who told a co-worker that he brings home the money so he should be able to do what he wants. But why do so many men think that? They are willing to do things at the expense of their women's feeling (as if she should not have any) but would leave her in a NY sec. if she thought of the same. We need to take care of each other (money is not all there is to a man being a provider)what about providing for the womans emotional and spiritual needs as well.

I don't want to out shine my man, I just want to shine with him...
I don't want cheat, I also don't want to be cheated on...
I don't want to ignore his needs, I also don't want mine ignored...
The list can go on and on.

Just as women need to think of men's feelings, the same needs to be reciprocated.
I am a queen not a slave.

[This message has been edited by lluvmook98 (edited October 17, 2000).]

[MissDiamond]

Jazbri, there is nothing wrong with soul searching. The problem that I have is what you're soul searching about. In my opinion, anything entitled "Why Are Black Women Scaring Off Their Men?" should not be something that should make black women start re-evaluating and analyzing themselves. The title alone infuriates me. Why are WE scaring the black man away?
I am sick and tired of hearing things like this about black women. It's bad enough others have and continue to portray us negatively, surely we don't need to start validating what they say by beginning to believe it and having the audacity to start adding our own little derogatory writings about the scary, self-indulgent black woman.
Analyzing yourself is not subservient and degrading, thinking that in order to truly be "in touch with our feminine centers" and to keep our men from running to the white woman, we have to put the black man ahead of our own personal acheivements and goals is!
Sister, you said yourself that black women can be gracious and lady-like, yet independent and strong.....(many of us are) so any black man that has had bad "speriences" (to quote Iluvmook98) with women who they and yourself seem to think are not treating them like kings, then there's plenty of independent, educated, sexy, feminine black women out there that will. So, AINT NO REASON TO GO IN SEARCH OF SOMEONE OUTSIDE THEIR RACE!
There is and never will be a shortage of good, black women so believe me when I tell you the men that are "scared away" are doing it because THEY WANT TO. Then to try and put the blame on us to justify what they're doing is nothing short of being a coward.
Now I don't know the circumstances behind your failed marriage, but sister PLEASE don't continue to beat yourself up over it. Divorce happens to the best of us. And as I'm sure you had your part in it's failure (as does your husband)it doesn't mean you're less of a woman. You've probably done some things that were wrong, but as a black woman there is nothing wrong with you.
Understand this.
To another point, I didn't say you or any other black woman should choose to be superior to black men. I merely pointed out our the fact that we COULD be.

As far as me solidifying your point. I don't see how. Conceding, and holding your tongue so that it makes your man feel more masculine IS a form of being submissive.

Why do black women allow themselves to be physically and menatlly abused by their "Kings"?

Why are our self-esteems so low?

These are questions I would go soul searching about. Why Black men are dating white women? I, personally, wouldn't waste my time pondering. Actually, I think it's more of an identity problem or personal issue that they have with themselves more than being "scared" off by us.

[MissDiamond]

Iluvmook98, I'm loving your last post girl!!
Just another note, I believe Doggystyle said something about needing a woman to make him whole or complete. Forgive me if I'm misquoting you.
Men don't need women to make them whole and woman definitley don't need men to complete them! You should make yourself whole and complete, your significant other should only compliment you. Kind of like icing on a cake.
What does that type of thinking say about single men and women? Are they NOT complete despite all of their accomplishments in life?

[lluvmook98]

I guess I lied. I'm in here again. Anyway, I remembered something else.

I read somewhere that men are more satisfied getting married than women.
Women start off happier pre-nuptuals and men are happier post-nuptuals.
The reason?
The article said because men go into marriage thinking that it will be a hastle and find that they are loved and cared for. Women go into it thinking that they will be loved and cared for and it ends up being a hastle because they are cooking, cleaning, working. pregnant and ignored.

To add to MissDiamond's statement about us (men/women) needing each other. I was taught that your mate is an accessory not a necessity.
Just like any accessory, you look good before you put it on but once it is on you look great!


[This message has been edited by lluvmook98 (edited October 17, 2000).]

[BrandNubian]

Originally posted by Shelacious:
Both Miss Diamond and Jazbri bring valid comments. I never got the impression that we were advocating a subservient role regarding our relationship with our men. My perspective was in looking at how we may overlook "the good man" because of some archaic theories about the "package" the "good man" should be in. Indeed, I have no desire to walk two steps behind my man, but I do not have the desire to walk two steps ahead of him either. I want to walk side-by-side, arm-in-arm as we walk through this life together.

The issue becomes, though, is "what do I consider equivalent? Equivalent doesn’t mean he must have identical education, salary and job responsibilities as myself. I think how we define equivalence is where we sometimes do a disservice to ourselves. I may make more money than my honey, for example, but he may be a better cook, so he's got responsibility for the kitchen. He may be a better money manager. I'm not looking for a Mr. Mom at all, but I would expect us to be equal in what we bring to the relationship in terms of time or dedication of talents. That's why I'm able to date a man who is a "good man" but is not bringing mega bucks or a Ph.D. (although he is getting his Masters) to the table--he has other qualities that balance out my own shortcomings. Of course the other side of the coin is that the brother needs to also be comfortable with the fact that he is not the primary breadwinner in the relationship, and that what he contributes to the relationship are not all the traditional things men are used to bringing. Some men can't handle that and may resent the woman for “usurping” his “natural” position. The key is for both men and women to not allow the breadwinner or educational issues to bring too much power into the relationship. Yes, earning the money is important, but I cannot “lord that over him” and negate his contributions as “less” than my own or vice versa. I have to be willing to appreciate the fact that while different, his contributions are just as important as the money I bring in. If I can’t do that, or if he cannot, our relationship is doomed to fail.

Shelacious:

I think you make some excellent points, and sum up the issue quite nicely. Well said!

Peace, Love and Progression,
B.N.


------------------
"We must combine the toughness of the serpent with the softness of the
dove, a tough mind with a tender heart."

-- Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Professor]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MissDiamond:
[b]To answer the original question, There isn't a dam thing wrong with black women. I am completely shocked to come in here and read some of the non-sense I see posted. I can not FATHOM why I am the only woman that have found "Why Are Black Women Scaring Off Their Men?" to be disguting and completely chauvinistic? Contrary to what the author of this ridiculous piece or writing wants us to believe, this was, without a doubt, written by a man. I will not believe a black woman would put such self-degrading absurdity out for the world to see.
Jazbri, dear, sister...it seems that you have bought into this foolish ideology. Black women have worked too hard and too long to have the right to vote, the right to an education, the right to be equal (and potentially superior) to our male counterparts. PLEASE do not attempt to tear it all down with this kind of thinking.
Black Women, please do not lower your standard, or give up your goals and dreams so that some black men with low self-esteems, inferiority complexes and identity problems can feel better about themselves!
Sisters let's not regress! Black men make a conscious decision to date outside of their race...don't allow them or anyone else to shift the blame to us. In the words of Maya Angelou "...it has nothing to do with you, and EVERYTHING to do with the other person (in this case, the black male)...your not in it...take yourself completely out of the situation." It is our job to love, respect and be there for our black men...it is not our job to keep them pleased at all costs, even if it means limiting ourselves and our personal acheivments. Go out there and get those Masters degrees and PhDs, you'll still have good black men (independent and secure within themselves) that will be right by your side. Don't worry yourselves with those who choose to date exclusively out of their race. Ladies, believe me, any black man that would do that wouldn't be worth much of your time anyway.
Forgive the long post, but I can not stand to hear black woman put themselves down like this. How can we be expected to uplift our black kings if we're not allowed to uplift ourselves first.
Jazbri, are you suggesting that maybe if Black women don't try to strive for the highest, quality eduaction and don't be so active in their communities and instead we make sure there's a big pot of collad greens and neckbones on the stove when our black men get home...maybe, just maybe we can compete with the white woman for their affections. I don't, for a minute, think so!

And if we do sacrifice for the sake of their happiness, what are they going to sacrifice for us? WOULD they do it for us? Wake up and smell the Cappuccino's honey, this is not the way to go.

Another thought, if black men are leaving us because we're strong, independent, and goal oriented and won't tolerate being stepped on and used...........What is this saying about white women?

I welcome any and all responses.

MISSDIAMOND,

You hit the nail dead on the head. While my black sisters are making great strides in education, board rooms and in the community the role of black men is not diminished. I F E E L you! There is nothing wrong with a black woman. Instead, the question should be what's wrong with black men! Seemingly, the problem lies with the men. I don't know the answer but I do know that there are contributing factors. In ratio there are more black women then black men. Taking into account the number of black men in jailhouses, on drugs, etc. the availability of black men is unfortunately limited. Women have had no choice but to assume many of the traditional roles once guarded by men. The reality is that black men need to reaffirm their commitment to empowering themselves which include fearing God, education, and respect for themselves and others. More over, once black men black have these assurances, they need to not forget black sisters who have regardless of the situation always been their primary support system. This point is not the time nor at any point for black men to feel they need to consider dating/marring women of other races.

Post Script: I have been trying to get through this book Cream in my coffee or maybe it is Milk in my coffee (?) by Eric Jerome Dickey. Anyway, a brother haphazardly ends up dating a white women and feels guilty for dating outside his race. For the black men that do make this C H O I C E, I wonder if guilt also lerks at the back of their mind - - It certainly would for me.

[jazbri]

MissDiamond,
The e-mail that I received entitled "Why Are Black Women Scaring Off Their Men?" was not the question that initiated my soul searching. The point of my topic was to analyze 'me' the black female. I do think that it is healthy to pay attention to my actions and to conduct an inventory of myself. Only through these actions am I able to grow. I am not on a soap box to negatively portray the black female. My attempt was to simply receive feedback from our peers to understand their thoughts on some of the areas that we may or may not need improvement. Apparently you don't feel that we do and I respect your opinion. I guess it's your tone that I found to be condescending. I don't know if you've taken the opportunity to thoroughly read the comments I've posted because in no way have I stated "In order for us to truly be in touch with our feminine centers" and to keep our men from running to the white woman, we have to put the black man ahead of our own personal achievements and goals". Again, I'd like to quote that I am not in agreement with any black male/female for that matter justifying his/her CHOICE to date outside of his/her race based on their negative experiences with the black male/female. On another note, I truly do not beat myself up about my marriage. I'm simply using my marriage in this thread as a platform to speak on relationship issues. I'm thoroughly over it and have completely moved on. I have, as anyone in my position should, evaluated myself and am cognizant of my own issues. To address another point you made, I really don't understand how any one person can be SUPERIOR to another. I believe that I'm no better than the next man/woman. I also don't think that holding my tongue allows my man to feel more masculine. Nor did I state that it would, I believe you've added that in to my point. If I chose to argue over every minute issue in a relationship, I don't think I'd gain much enjoyment from it. I simply choose to pick my battles.

In closing, I feel that you and I have some similar views and others that are quite disparaging.

[jazbri]

Sorry to be here again!

I wanted to thank EVERYONE for their comments and if nothing else I've learned what others think about the black female. I've learned that we are well respected and loved by our black male. I've also learned what we think of ourselves! We are very proud and strong group of women who have taken great strides in a society that often does not recognize us as such! Thanks for the insight.

[This message has been edited by jazbri (edited October 18, 2000).]

[MissDiamond]

Originally posted by jazbri:
MissDiamond,
The e-mail that I received entitled "Why Are Black Women Scaring Off Their Men?" was not the question that initiated my soul searching. The point of my topic was to analyze 'me' the black female. I do think that it is healthy to pay attention to my actions and to conduct an inventory of myself. Only through these actions am I able to grow. I am not on a soap box to negatively portray the black female. My attempt was to simply receive feedback from our peers to understand their thoughts on some of the areas that we may or may not need improvement. Apparently you don't feel that we do and I respect your opinion. I guess it's your tone that I found to be condescending. I don't know if you've taken the opportunity to thoroughly read the comments I've posted because in no way have I stated "In order for us to truly be in touch with our feminine centers" and to keep our men from running to the white woman, we have to put the black man ahead of our own personal achievements and goals". Again, I'd like to quote that I am not in agreement with any black male/female for that matter justifying his/her CHOICE to date outside of his/her race based on their negative experiences with the black male/female. On another note, I truly do not beat myself up about my marriage. I'm simply using my marriage in this thread as a platform to speak on relationship issues. I'm thoroughly over it and have completely moved on. I have, as anyone in my position should, evaluated myself and am cognizant of my own issues. To address another point you made, I really don't understand how any one person can be SUPERIOR to another. I believe that I'm no better than the next man/woman. I also don't think that holding my tongue allows my man to feel more masculine. Nor did I state that it would, I believe you've added that in to my point. If I chose to argue over every minute issue in a relationship, I don't think I'd gain much enjoyment from it. I simply choose to pick my battles.

In closing, I feel that you and I have some similar views and others that are quite disparaging.

Jazbri, I have read your posts carefully and some things that I quoted are from you, but most are from the e-mail that was sent to you, which you said in one of your posts that you are in agreement with (correct me if I'm wrong).

Sister, in my last post I was trying to be encouraging and supportive to you, but I see you chose to take it in a negative way.

I don't see where our views are similar, but I will re-read the posts again.

You asked a question, and I answered it. There's nothing wrong with the black woman.

We have our problems and issues like anybody else. But as a whole, we are a just fine thank you.