Prop 8 Nov. 15 Protest

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I just find it very insensitive that the Black experience in America can get so trivialized.

It's even more telling that you think I was "trivializing" the black experience by utilizing the historical and moral lessons that are directly drawn from the mistreatment of blacks in the United States to further human rights.

It's not "trivializing" the black experience - it's hoping that we never repeat the same horrific mistakes ever again. But hey - take it how you will.

Also, that's fine if you feel homosexuality is a choice, or that it's immoral. However, even if you want to dodge the church/state separation issue (I presume you do), I'm sure you'll agree that even immoral people (who do not break a law) deserve proper and equal treatment under the law.

Because of the positive connotation (and stigma) associated with the term "marriage," we walk a difficult path when we even begin to introduce terms such as "civil union" - it's eerily similar to how "separate-but-equal" was really anything but, even when we acknowledge the scale is dissimilar. We should be more enlightened than to simply pretend terms or institutions have no meaning or can be used interchangeably - they can't.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

No, not really.

I just find it very insensitive that the Black experience in America can get so trivialized.

So, Sen, let me ask you - would you as a Black gay man find the issue of gay marriage more compelling if it is compared to the Holocaust that Jews experienced?

It's sad that you feel that by viewing the issue of gay marriage as a civil rights issue that it somehow trivializes the black experience. MY black experience is enhanced by being able to acknowledge that it's all part of the same movement.

I don't need to find the issue of gay marriage any more compelling for me than it already is -- it's my life.

I feel very strongly about this issue, enough to end friendships with people just like you who do not believe in my equality. I WILL NOT respect any person, religion, or opinion that does not stand with me for equal rights.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

It's even more telling that you think I was "trivializing" the black experience by utilizing the historical and moral lessons that are directly drawn from the mistreatment of blacks in the United States to further human rights.

So point out to me where gays have experienced the exact same mistreatment as Blacks? As I asked earlier, were there or are there separate water fountains for gays?

It's not "trivializing" the black experience - it's hoping that we never repeat the same horrific mistakes ever again. But hey - take it how you will.

It is trivializing the Black experience. Have gays in this country been forced into slave labor? Were gay families broken up and sold as property? Have gays been denied the right to vote soley because they were gay?

Also, that's fine if you feel homosexuality is a choice, or that it's immoral. However, even if you want to dodge the church/state separation issue (I presume you do), I'm sure you'll agree that even immoral people (who do not break a law) deserve proper and equal treatment under the law.

I feel that homosexuality is a choice because it has not been proven otherwise, i.e. a gay gene.

I dodge the church/state issue because for me it is an impass. I don't think one side will ever convince the other, so why discuss it.

Again, gay people have not been mistreated under the law. Gay people don't get longer jail time or have to pay higher taxes just because they are gay.

Because of the positive connotation (and stigma) associated with the term "marriage," we walk a difficult path when we even begin to introduce terms such as "civil union" - it's eerily similar to how "separate-but-equal" was really anything but, even when we acknowledge the scale is dissimilar. We should be more enlightened than to simply pretend terms or institutions have no meaning or can be used interchangeably - they can't.

I agree with this and I bolded the part of the point I'm trying to make.

If you want to make the argument for gay marriage do so - just find a different basis than 'separate but equal'. Separate but equal sought to restore and give rights to Blacks where those rights were taken away. Nothing has been taken away from gays.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

So point out to me where gays have experienced the exact same mistreatment as Blacks? As I asked earlier, were there or are there separate water fountains for gays?

It is trivializing the Black experience. Have gays in this country been forced into slave labor? Were gay families broken up and sold as property? Have gays been denied the right to vote soley because they were gay?

I feel that homosexuality is a choice because it has not been proven otherwise, i.e. a gay gene.

I dodge the church/state issue because for me it is an impass. I don't think one side will ever convince the other, so why discuss it.

Again, gay people have not been mistreated under the law. Gay people don't get longer jail time or have to pay higher taxes just because they are gay.

I agree with this and I bolded the part of the point I'm trying to make.

If you want to make the argument for gay marriage do so - just find a different basis than 'separate but equal'. Separate but equal sought to restore and give rights to Blacks where those rights were taken away. Nothing has been taken away from gays.

What planet are you on? The right to marry has been taken away, the very same right that Loving -v- Virginia stated was a basic human right.

And gay people have been mistreated under the law, until very recently in some states it was a crime punishable by jail time for a gay couple to make love.

You need for there to be a "gay" gene for it to be proven that being gay isn't a choice? Well, there is no "black" gene, so being black must be a choice, right?

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Senusret I

It's sad that you feel that by viewing the issue of gay marriage as a civil rights issue that it somehow trivializes the black experience. MY black experience is enhanced by being able to acknowledge that it's all part of the same movement.

My point is why do gays always have to point to the Black experience as a justification to gain their rights - what ever they may be. Why can't gay people just say that many groups have been persecuted for one reason or another based on some aspect of their being, so why should they (gays) be persucuted for how they are.

I don't need to find the issue of gay marriage any more compelling for me than it already is -- it's my life.

For you personally, I'm sure that is true. I think if more people had a more visceral feeling towards the Black experience then they would be a bit more sensitive (understanding?) to wanting to compare their experience to ours.

I have parents and family members as I am sure you do, who lived through the experience of the civil rights movement. Who did truly live a 'separate but equal' life under segregation. When my parents and older family members relate their experiences to me I just don't see the comparison to gay rights.

I feel very strongly about this issue, enough to end friendships with people just like you who do not believe in my equality. I WILL NOT respect any person, religion, or opinion that does not stand with me for equal rights.

Wow, you're a real love me or leave kind of person, eh?

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by kstar

What planet are you on? The right to marry has been taken away, the very same right that Loving -v- Virginia stated was a basic human right.

I don't agree. How can something get taken away if you never had it in the first place?
If at some point gays did have the right to marry, then it was taken away, okay, I see your point. But, like I said, gays never had the right in the first place.

And gay people have been mistreated under the law, until very recently in some states it was a crime punishable by jail time for a gay couple to make love.

Yeah, and those states took that law of the books too.

You need for there to be a "gay" gene for it to be proven that being gay isn't a choice? Well, there is no "black" gene, so being black must be a choice, right?

I think you are making an assumption that is not true. Being black in terms of skin pigmentation is very different than being Black by culture.

And no, being black is not a choice (unless you are Michael Jackson ). I was born with a good deal of pigmentation in my skin as I was born to parents who have a good deal of pigmentation in their skin.

Now, by culture, I do identify with the Black race. But, as we know, you really don't have to be born Black to be Black. Just ask Eminem (?sp).

And btw kstar, whose sock puppet are you?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

So point out to me where gays have experienced the exact same mistreatment as Blacks? As I asked earlier, were there or are there separate water fountains for gays?

No one claimed that these were true - however, these things are neither necessary nor sufficient for a comparison to be made.

Maybe our impasse is one of being far too literal. To use the phrase "separate but equal" is simply to reference the fact that, in practice and in theory, any sort of bifurcation or double standard has been shown to be unlawful and discriminatory. Does that make more sense?

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

It is trivializing the Black experience. Have gays in this country been forced into slave labor? Were gay families broken up and sold as property? Have gays been denied the right to vote soley because they were gay?

No one is claiming any of these things - we're only claiming that, for years, the court system in the United States has determined that the right to marry is, indeed, a constitutionally-given right - as is the right to vote, the right to liberty and property, and a host of others.

I believe someone smarter than me once said that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - this is the part you're missing when you view my comparison, to my mind.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Again, gay people have not been mistreated under the law. Gay people don't get longer jail time or have to pay higher taxes just because they are gay.

Nope, they just earn less, get fired more, get targeted for crimes based on their minority status, and lack fundamental rights under the law. So yeah - if you're comfortable with that, there's no discussion to be had.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

If you want to make the argument for gay marriage do so - just find a different basis than 'separate but equal'. Separate but equal sought to restore and give rights to Blacks where those rights were taken away. Nothing has been taken away from gays.

This is the same logic that was used to prevent blacks from voting decades ago.

Actually, you've validated the comparison implicitly - banning gay marriage is "restoring" a right to gays that has been unilaterally denied under false pretense. I've never owned a gun, but that doesn't mean I forfeit my Constitutional right to do so.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

No one claimed that these were true - however, these things are neither necessary nor sufficient for a comparison to be made.

That is because to claim that gays have suffered the exact same as Blacks in this country is a weak argument, at best.

Maybe our impasse is one of being far too literal. To use the phrase "separate but equal" is simply to reference the fact that, in practice and in theory, any sort of bifurcation or double standard has been shown to be unlawful and discriminatory. Does that make more sense?

You're the one who's trying to make it literal by posting the picture that you did. And again, I disagree. I don't see where there is any double standard here.

No one is claiming any of these things - we're only claiming that, for years, the court system in the United States has determined that the right to marry is, indeed, a constitutionally-given right - as is the right to vote, the right to liberty and property, and a host of others.

Again, you're not going to convince me that this is a valid argument.

I believe someone smarter than me once said that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - this is the part you're missing when you view my comparison, to my mind.

I don't see the injustice. I just don't.

Nope, they just earn less, get fired more, get targeted for crimes based on their minority status, and lack fundamental rights under the law. So yeah - if you're comfortable with that, there's no discussion to be had.

Not from my perspective. The gays I know seem to earn more and get fired less. Where do you live? Maybe you should move.

This is the same logic that was used to prevent blacks from voting decades ago.

Actually, you've validated the comparison implicitly - banning gay marriage is "restoring" a right to gays that has been unilaterally denied under false pretense. I've never owned a gun, but that doesn't mean I forfeit my Constitutional right to do so.

Blacks were denied the right to vote because in part we were seen as 'less than human, lacking the mental capacity to make important decisions'. I've never gotten the feeling that gays have had to suffer that type of injustice.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

This isn't about scorecards... the group that gets the most discrimination will receive their rights first... The only comparison to the black struggle that was trying to be made is, that this country has a history of LEGALLY suppressing the rights of individuals based on race, gender, religion and sexuality, with the African American struggle being the most prevalent by means of recency and severity. Now, in every national battle, both sides of the argument will say things they shouldn't say, things that cross the line. You shouldn't hold that against the other side as a whole. There are ignorant people on both side of the issue.

Gays are being told that they couldn't vote because they are immoral, confusing to children, and will upset church practice. No, that is not as severe as "less than human, lacking the mental capacity to make important decisions" as Sigmadiva put it. No, gays probably aren't being treated bad as African Americans. There were 3 times as many race-related crimes to sexual orientation related crimes. However, gays are being told they do not deserve the rights of everyone else. They are being told that they can not marry the one that they love. They are being told that they are not capable of raising healthy children. ETC... There is a difference between the way the government is benefiting straight people and gay people. That IS discrimination, even if it is not as bad as slavery or the right to vote, it still is discrimination.

Two days ago Moses Cannon was shot for being gay in Syracuse, New York. Again, I am not saying the gay struggle compares, but the struggle is definitely there and relevant... and tolerance will not come until our government fully accepts us.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by a.e.B.O.T.

This isn't about scorecards... the group that gets the most discrimination will receive their rights first... The only comparison to the black struggle that was trying to be made is, that this country has a history of LEGALLY suppressing the rights of individuals based on race, gender, religion and sexuality, with the African American struggle being the most prevalent by means of recency and severity. Now, in every national battle, both sides of the argument will say things they shouldn't say, things that cross the line. You shouldn't hold that against the other side as a whole. There are ignorant people on both side of the issue.

Gays are being told that they couldn't vote because they are immoral, confusing to children, and will upset church practice. No, that is not as severe as "less than human, lacking the mental capacity to make important decisions" as Sigmadiva put it. No, gays probably aren't being treated bad as African Americans. There were 3 times as many race-related crimes to sexual orientation related crimes. However, gays are being told they do not deserve the rights of everyone else. They are being told that they can not marry the one that they love. They are being told that they are not capable of raising healthy children. ETC... There is a difference between the way the government is benefiting straight people and gay people. That IS discrimination, even if it is not as bad as slavery or the right to vote, it still is discrimination.

Two days ago Moses Cannon was shot for being gay in Syracuse, New York. Again, I am not saying the gay struggle compares, but the struggle is definitely there and relevant... and tolerance will not come until our government fully accepts us.

1. Good, then stop trying to make implicit comparisons to the struggle of Blacks in this country to gay rights. I'm glad that you have recognized that the weight of the two are not the same.

2. I personally in no way condone violence against anyone based on how they are.

3. People (the government) will have a hard time accepting you because to do that would be to support a lifestyle that they may find immoral.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I don't think anyone believes people should marry for health benefits or tax breaks, so why would they be a good reason to perpetuate the institution?

My experience tells me that some (certainly not all) couples do indeed chose to marry rather than simply live together precisely for reasons such as these.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Don't most of us operate that way? [Not being interested in any opinions that don't match our own]

The close-minded certainly do. I try not to.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

So, Sen, let me ask you - would you as a Black gay man find the issue of gay marriage more compelling if it is compared to the Holocaust that Jews experienced?

You do know, don't you, that thousands of German homosexuals were also sent to the concentration camps and to German jails? Many were forcibly castrated, used for hormone experiments and/or killed. They had to wear pink triangles instead of (or in addition to) the yellow Star of David as a badge.

After the liberation of the concentration camps, the German goverment often re-imprisoned those gay prisoners; some remained imprisoned for years after being "liberated," all because they had been convicted of being gay, which the Nazi government had made a felony.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I don't agree. How can something get taken away if you never had it in the first place?
If at some point gays did have the right to marry, then it was taken away, okay, I see your point. But, like I said, gays never had the right in the first place.

Yeah, and those states took that law of the books too.

I think you are making an assumption that is not true. Being black in terms of skin pigmentation is very different than being Black by culture.

And no, being black is not a choice (unless you are Michael Jackson ). I was born with a good deal of pigmentation in my skin as I was born to parents who have a good deal of pigmentation in their skin.

Now, by culture, I do identify with the Black race. But, as we know, you really don't have to be born Black to be Black. Just ask Eminem (?sp).

And btw kstar, whose sock puppet are you?

Sock puppet? I've been on GC for longer than you. (by 10 days, but regardless...)

You say being black is not a choice, then you say that it is? That doesn't even make sense. Being gay is not a choice, in fact, if you ask most homosexuals, they will tell you that they tried to be straight, but couldn't. The heart loves who it loves.

It doesn't matter if homosexuals had the had the right taken away or denied the right from the beginning, it is their right. Blacks didn't have the right to vote taken away from them, they didn't have it from the beginning, so they shouldn't have been all up in arms about not having the right? I don't think so. Nor did they have the right to marry who they chose, but a black woman fought and had her innate right recognized. From the decision of Loving -v- Virginia, "Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," .... To deny this fundamental freedom ..., is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law... Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person ... resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State." Yes, this decision was about interracial marriage, but I don't see how you can argue that interracial marriage is okay, because those people loved each other, and homosexual marriage is not. It is an innate right to marry who you want, and to deny that seriously makes you seem like a bigot.

Even if the laws were struck down, these people are NOT getting equal protection under the law. They cannot see their partner when they are in the hospital or make medical decisions for them, they cannot see their children if they are not the ones on the adoption papers or the biological parent, they can't adopt in some states. Hate crimes against homosexuals aren't even declared hate crimes in some states, since the laws only cover gender or racially motivated crimes. How is that equal protection?

Now, I have to ask, why can you not see that the struggle for civil rights and equal rights for one group is the same as any other struggle for civil rights? It doesn't matter if the crimes perpetrated against one group were better or worse, they were still crimes. You want to compare gay rights to the Holocaust struggle, I could say that is ridiculous since the Holocaust was about depriving people (including homosexuals, not only jews) of their life, not their rights, and the black rights movement of the mid-twentieth century was about rights.

Separate but equal was used to justify segregation, in this case people are calling for civil unions as opposed to marriage, saying that it is the same thing (equal) but different terminology (separate). You are really saying that you don't see how separate but equal is the same type of struggle as separate but equal?

[a.e.B.O.T.]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

1. Good, then stop trying to make implicit comparisons to the struggle of Blacks in this country to gay rights. I'm glad that you have recognized that the weight of the two are not the same.

2. I personally in no way condone violence against anyone based on how they are.

3. People (the government) will have a hard time accepting you because to do that would be to support a lifestyle that they may find immoral.

Ok, like I said before... there are going to be things said on both sides of the argument that are unjust and ignorant. That will not change. I can't change that. There however, is a difference between the struggle... i.e. saying that gays have had it as bad as blacks... and the arguments for the suppression... such as the Loving v. Virginia case mentioned here earlier... people found it immoral, and at that time, even after the case, a majority found it immoral. People find this immoral, but government isn't about morals. The government is about fairness, or at least should be. You want morals, go to church, believe that God doesn't approve of gays... that is all fine and dandy, and you have every right to do so. However, the government is about fairness... so the question is, is gay marriage fair? Loving V. Virginia is totally just in the argument for gay marriage as the grounds of the victory was based on the fourteenth amendment, which re-affirms the equal protection clause. The basis for that case were that Loving was protect under that clause as a citizen of the U.S... well, gays are protected under that clause as well. So there is grounds for bringing up that case as well as grounds for arguing discrimination.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by LightBulb

Prop 8 is evolving... No on Shrimp

hahahahaha

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

My experience tells me that some (certainly not all) couples do indeed chose to marry rather than simply live together precisely for reasons such as these.

The close-minded certainly do. I try not to.

You do know, don't you, that thousands of German homosexuals were also sent to the concentration camps and to German jails? Many were forcibly castrated, used for hormone experiments and/or killed. They had to wear pink triangles instead of (or in addition to) the yellow Star of David as a badge.

After the liberation of the concentration camps, the German goverment often re-imprisoned those gay prisoners; some remained imprisoned for years after being "liberated," all because they had been convicted of being gay, which the Nazi government had made a felony.

Yes, I do. My point was to illustrate that not only have Black Americans been ostracized, others have also. So, why do gays choose to compare their struggle to Blacks only? Why not compare their struggles to other groups.