Wilders' controversial "Fitna" now on web

[jwright25]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Yes they were - like I said the best propaganda is the skillful manipulation of the truth to place it all in the context you want... which is exactly what Wilders does here, and I'm at a loss to try and understand why some here are so willing to buy into the carefully managed and constructed "truth" he pieces together. But then again some people are more apt to believe what they want to believe if the past decade of media and politics is any indication...

I have not seen the Wilders film yet, so I cannot comment on that. But I wonder if you feel it is appropriate to apply the same logic to the films of Michael Moore?

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by moe.ron

The quotes are taken way out of context, ala Emerson and Daniel Pipe style.

He gets big publicity no matter what happen.

If nothing happen, he can claim that he is happy about maturity of the debate.

If riots and stuff happen, he can say, "see, we can't trust those Muslims."

Are they really taken out of context??!?!
Is so, he is just repeating what the masses are being told by the current "leaders" in their studies and religious centers.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by jwright25

I have not seen the Wilders film yet, so I cannot comment on that. But I wonder if you feel it is appropriate to apply the same logic to the films of Michael Moore?

Yes I think it's only appropriate to apply the same logic to any "documentary" - though again to me there is a difference between a film-maker playing at politics, and a politician creating films to promote his ideology...

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Are they really taken out of context??!?!Is so, he is just repeating what the masses are being told by the current "leaders" in their studies and religious centers.

Of course they are taking the quotes out of context, and frankly it disturbs me that you even have to ask that...

After all couldn't an equally disturbing film be made about any faith really if scriptural quotes are "cherry picked" and matched to loosely analogous imagery? China likes to do just that when it comes to Christianity or Buddhism, and we'd all be outraged (or I hope we would be) at the portrayal of Christianity as a violent death cult obsessed with the end of the world, or Buddhism as a dangerous and murderous faith bent on destroying society.

But since it's Islam it seems that many of those already biased or "Islamaphobic" happily lap up the spoon-fed bullshit with out ever question either the motivation behind it, or the context of the content...

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Of course they are taking the quotes out of context, and frankly it disturbs me that you even have to ask that...

After all couldn't an equally disturbing film be made about any faith really if scriptural quotes are "cherry picked" and matched to loosely analogous imagery? China likes to do just that when it comes to Christianity or Buddhism, and we'd all be outraged (or I hope we would be) at the portrayal of Christianity as a violent death cult obsessed with the end of the world, or Buddhism as a dangerous and murderous faith bent on destroying society.

But since it's Islam it seems that many of those already biased or "Islamaphobic" happily lap up the spoon-fed bullshit with out ever question either the motivation behind it, or the context of the content...

You may have missed a prior posting or two of mine.
If there is a problem with the way this film "cherry picked" scriptural quotes, is it not a problem as well if those same quotes and more/worse ones are cherry picked by those who are the leaders/teachers/consulars et al???
And that those same leaders, who no doudt had at least something to do with the threats against film, see nothing wrong with what they do all in the name of Islam and M-d?

[ThetaPrincess24]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

If Europe continues to sit idly by, they'll be made to cower later.

Well, some things never change I guess....

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by ThetaPrincess24

Well, some things never change I guess....

Ah yes because Europe is known for cowering and being non-interventionist

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by jon1856

If there is a problem with the way this film "cherry picked" scriptural quotes, is it not a problem as well if those same quotes and more/worse ones are cherry picked by those who are the leaders/teachers/consulars et al???

With those people and their use of scripture to further their own political and ideological ends yes... not with the scripture.

Hell I can think of another leader that talked about scripture, speaking to God, a crusade etc. before going to war...

And that those same leaders, who no doudt had at least something to do with the threats against film, see nothing wrong with what they do all in the name of Islam and M-d?

No more so than any extremist - they operate by their own twisted logic to make the ideology fit their perception of reality... it's pretty much the hallmark of ideological extremism isn't it? Yet this seems to be something that Wilders conveniently neglects in his quest to ban Muslim immigrants and ban the Qu'ran - he is allowing his hate and bigotry to cloud his mind just as much as the extremists he depicts as the norm...

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by RACooper

With those people and their use of scripture to further their own political and ideological ends yes... not with the scripture.

Hell I can think of another leader that talked about scripture, speaking to God, a crusade etc. before going to war...



No more so than any extremist - they operate by their own twisted logic to make the ideology fit their perception of reality... it's pretty much the hallmark of ideological extremism isn't it? Yet this seems to be something that Wilders conveniently neglects in his quest to ban Muslim immigrants and ban the Qu'ran - he is allowing his hate and bigotry to cloud his mind just as much as the extremists he depicts as the norm...

As I posted well up by now, I agree with you that the scripture is not wrong; just how it is being used, edited and preached.
Now I really wish that show was being repeated.

[UGAalum94]

I guess what I'd like to see is reasoned response by moderate Muslims about how the scriptural quotes are also being "cherry-picked" by extremists and not just filmmakers when religious extremists encourage people to commit acts of violence or terror in the name of Islam.

But instead we get extremist interaction: some in the form of propaganda, some in the opposition to propaganda.

RACooper, the reference to Jack Chick might be a great analogy. I don't think I've ever seen a case in which the response to a Jack Chick cartoon, as offensive as they are to people who don't share his beliefs, was a suggestion to silence Jack Chick, particularly through the use of violence. As a Roman Catholic who finds his materials pretty, er, interesting, I react instead by wanting to explain how what Jack Chick said differed from actual RC teaching. As far as I know, this is the typical reaction.

Similarly, while propaganda presenting Christianity as a death cult might offend a lot of people, there'd be no global fear of widespread violence as a result of such a film and no UN officials would feel the need to make a statement about the film, I don't think. There is something fundamentally different about Islam in this regard.

So it seems to me the problem lies almost solely in the reaction to film and not the film itself.

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I guess what I'd like to see is reasoned response by moderate Muslims about how the scriptural quotes are also being "cherry-picked" by extremists and not just filmmakers when religious extremists encourage people to commit acts of violence or terror in the name of Islam.

They do all the time - or at least on the TV programmes and new as well of in the newspapers that I watch or watch, if not in person when shooting the shit watching the game.

But instead we get extremist interaction: some in the form of propaganda, some in the opposition to propaganda.

RACooper, the reference to Jack Chick might be a great analogy. I don't think I've ever seen a case in which the response to a Jack Chick cartoon, as offensive as they are to people who don't share his beliefs, was a suggestion to silence Jack Chick, particularly through the use of violence.

Heh... he is silenced up here He is prohibited from visiting, and of course is prohibited from distributing his "literature" by law (Canadian Jewish Congress and the Roman Catholics took him to court), and furthermore those who distribute his literature are also in violation of the law as well (some one has to bring it to court though...). As for the violence bit... well some of the French Canadian Catholics and Jews advocated that, and were taken to court as well...

Similarly, while propaganda presenting Christianity as a death cult might offend a lot of people, there'd be no global fear of widespread violence as a result of such a film and no UN officials would feel the need to make a statement about the film, I don't think.

The UN regularly makes comments about China's "documentaries" on religions - of course China has a bigger stick than 'Islam' at the UN so not much comes of it...

There is something fundamentally different about Islam in this regard.

Not to me - I'm just as terrified of the fundamentalist Christian nutjobs as I am of the Islamic ones - hell I'm terrified of the fundamentalists/fanatics of any ideological stripe really... I guess you could say it plays a part in my "anti-Americanism" since the particular brand Christianity known roughly as American Protestantism disturbs me quite a bit (as does the still present and healthy anti-Catholicism there as well).

So it seems to me the problem lies almost solely in the reaction to film and not the film itself.

Partly yes - which is also my point, the reactions of everyone to the film is very interesting - reactions that for the most part I think Wilders was planning to provoke exactly with his latest provocative attack on Islam: condemnation and outrage from one quarter, and applause and promotion from another - basically playing to both the extremists and the bigots (like moe.ron alluded too).

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I guess what I'd like to see is reasoned response by moderate Muslims about how the scriptural quotes are also being "cherry-picked" by extremists and not just filmmakers when religious extremists encourage people to commit acts of violence or terror in the name of Islam.

But instead we get extremist interaction: some in the form of propaganda, some in the opposition to propaganda.

RACooper, the reference to Jack Chick might be a great analogy. I don't think I've ever seen a case in which the response to a Jack Chick cartoon, as offensive as they are to people who don't share his beliefs, was a suggestion to silence Jack Chick, particularly through the use of violence. As a Roman Catholic who finds his materials pretty, er, interesting, I react instead by wanting to explain how what Jack Chick said differed from actual RC teaching. As far as I know, this is the typical reaction.

Similarly, while propaganda presenting Christianity as a death cult might offend a lot of people, there'd be no global fear of widespread violence as a result of such a film and no UN officials would feel the need to make a statement about the film, I don't think. There is something fundamentally different about Islam in this regard.

So it seems to me the problem lies almost solely in the reaction to film and not the film itself.

Good posting; well thought out and written.

[jon1856]

Report: Non-Muslims Deserve to Be Punished
A report posted on Islam Watch, a site run by Muslims who oppose intolerant teachings and hatred for unbelievers, exposes a prominent Islamic cleric and lawyer who support extreme punishment for non-Muslims — including killing and rape.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,344409,00.html

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Report: Non-Muslims Deserve to Be Punished
A report posted on Islam Watch, a site run by Muslims who oppose intolerant teachings and hatred for unbelievers, exposes a prominent Islamic cleric and lawyer who support extreme punishment for non-Muslims — including killing and rape.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,344409,00.html

Oh look, it's Fox News.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Good posting; well thought out and written.

Thanks