Most chapters at Phi Beta Kappa schools

[Low C Sharp]

Yes, there are a few highly selective schools that don't have a Phi Beta Kappa chapter -- the service academies, Caltech, and Bryn Mawr among them. But many of those schools don't host GLO chapters on campus anyway, so their non-participation in PBK isn't relevant to the thread. (Many schools known for their excellent engineering or pre-professional programs do have chapters, such as MIT, Auburn, Texas A&M, etc.).

I don't believe all colleges and universities are equal in academic quality, and the marketplace doesn't believe that either. PBK is one of the better metrics to use if you want to put together a list of the 300 or so best undergraduate liberal arts programs in the country. Obviously a group that large is going to include more than just the Ivy League level institutions, but it's still an academically select group within the 2200+ four-year institutions in this country. So I was interested to see oldu's results, and if someone puts up an NPHC or MCGLO thread on the topic, I'll be interested in that, too.
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[Little32]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Yes, there are a few highly selective schools that don't have a Phi Beta Kappa chapter -- the service academies, Caltech, and Bryn Mawr among them. But many of those schools don't host GLO chapters on campus anyway, so their non-participation in PBK isn't relevant to the thread. (Many schools known for their excellent engineering or pre-professional programs do have chapters, such as MIT, Auburn, Texas A&M, etc.).

I don't believe all colleges and universities are equal in academic quality, and the marketplace doesn't believe that either. PBK is one of the better metrics to use if you want to put together a list of the 300 or so best undergraduate liberal arts programs in the country. Obviously a group that large is going to include more than just the Ivy League level institutions, but it's still an academically select group within the 2200+ four-year institutions in this country. So I was interested to see oldu's results, and if someone puts up an NPHC or MCGLO thread on the topic, I'll be interested in that, too.

But even if this were the case, the implicit argument is itself a logical fallacy (I have been teaching my students about these of late), especially if my understanding of the ways that NPC/NIC/IFC organizations colonize is correct. The appearance of specific social greek orgs on the same campus as PBK ultimately proves nothing about either organization, which is what most people seem to be pointing out.

Sidebar: I too have noted that oldu's posts never take into consideration NPHC orgs.

[aopirose]

Originally Posted by Little32

But even if this were the case, the implicit argument is itself a logical fallacy (I have been teaching my students about these of late), especially if my understanding of the ways that NPC/NIC/IFC organizations colonize is correct. The appearance of specific social greek orgs on the same campus as PBK ultimately proves nothing about either organization, which is what most people seem to be pointing out.

Sidebar: I too have noted that oldu's posts never take into consideration NPHC orgs.

Exactly. In many cases, GLO chapters were there before the PBK chapter.

BTW - Nice work TSteven on the rifle teams.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by aopirose

BTW - Nice work TSteven on the rifle teams.

Why, thank you. UK does a good job promoting the Rifle Team. For what it is worth, Kentucky folk love to hunt. As such, a lot of Kentuckians grew up learning to shoot all those crazy varmints and wild critters from hundreds of yards away. Who knew that some would parley that ability into an athletic scholarship to a Phi Beta Kappa institution of higher learning.

[NutBrnHair]

Most, if not all, social GLOs list scholarship among their purposes.

Certainly an excellent education (and Greek experience) can be obtained from a non-Phi Beta Kappa campus. My alma mater is not on the list and is considered a competitive liberal arts school. If a school is on the list that you think is not "elite" because it's a large state university known as a "football school," you must realize that the size of the library, the research projects by faculty and the number of undergrads going on to pursue post-graduate work makes the school an excellent candidate.

I find the list interesting. Actually, if I was starting a social GLO -- I'd be more than satisfied with having a chapter at every school listed on the Phi Beta Kappa website.

oldu does a lot of work compiling these threads and I enjoy them. He stated that he would include NPHC groups if he had an accurate list. I think he's being more than accomodating.

oldu, I understand the correlation and really appreciate you putting up with all this!

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

and if someone puts up an NPHC or MCGLO thread on the topic, I'll be interested in that, too.

Good luck, someone.

[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Yes, there are a few highly selective schools that don't have a Phi Beta Kappa chapter --

And some not so highly selective schools that do. Which is why the benchmark is flawed.

[texas*princess]

so i guess that means all other GLOs don't have any standards when it comes to expanding because they don't have the brightest students there

[Low C Sharp]

I guess I don't see the need for PBK to be a "flawless" measure of liberal arts academic quality for the list to be of interest. Ok, so it has flaws -- so what? I mean, we're not here to divide grant money among these institutions or do anything of any consequence. We're just chatting on a chat board. Let's suppose the PBK list has 75% overlap with the institutions I would consider the top 300 in the country for liberal arts. That's accurate enough to hold my attention for 10 minutes, which is all a chat board thread is supposed to do.

The appearance of specific social greek orgs on the same campus as PBK ultimately proves nothing about either organization, which is what most people seem to be pointing out.

Surely the data show a pattern. If there's really no relationship between PBK chapters and some social GLOs, then you wouldn't expect to see such massive variation among the GLOs in one conference. You'd expect to see a large number of groups around the mean and a few outliers at the top and bottom of the scale. But you don't see that -- not even close. In fact, there's a statistically remarkable clustering of a few groups that have huge PBK overlap. There's clearly a non-random association between (for example) KKG and PBK, and that is of interest even when the data themselves say nothing about the cause. That's where the chat comes in.

I'm not an NPC or IFC member and I don't have any agenda to promote one GLO relative to the rest. Anyway, why does a thread need to "prove" anything to be of interest? It's just some observations to chat about.
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[ladygreek]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

I guess I don't see the need for PBK to be a "flawless" measure of liberal arts academic quality for the list to be of interest. Ok, so it has flaws -- so what? I mean, we're not here to divide grant money among these institutions or do anything of any consequence. We're just chatting on a chat board. Let's suppose the PBK list has 75% overlap with the institutions I would consider the top 300 in the country for liberal arts. That's accurate enough to hold my attention for 10 minutes, which is all a chat board thread is supposed to do.

And promote discussion, which is all that has happened here. If everyone just read and didn't comment it would be a very boring message board.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Surely the data show a pattern. If there's really no relationship between PBK chapters and some social GLOs, then you wouldn't expect to see such massive variation among the GLOs in one conference. You'd expect to see a large number of groups around the mean and a few outliers at the top and bottom of the scale. But you don't see that -- not even close. In fact, there's a statistically remarkable clustering of a few groups that have huge PBK overlap. There's clearly a non-random association between (for example) KKG and PBK, and that is of interest even when the data themselves say nothing about the cause. That's where the chat comes in.

And I don't deny the fact that this might be interesting statistically, but my point still stands; and to my original point I will add that the concept of "elite" is relative.

[Senusret I]

oldu claims NPHC org websites don't have chapter listings -- most have a chapter locater of some sort.

I just don't buy that the NPC and NIC orgs ALL have complete listings on their national websites and the po NPHC orgs are just so much work and have Section 8 websites.

[starang21]

so i'm lazy. is there a point to be proven?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by starang21

so i'm lazy. is there a point to be proven?

No.

Hewwo.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

No.

Hewwo.

hi.

come over.