12-year-old tased by police officer

[christiangirl]

I work in a psychiatric facility and have been physically assaulted by children ages 4-17 and up to 6 feet tall (I'm 5'3"). I still am against using a taser on a child for multiple reasons ETA: unless that child is armed with a weapon and has clear intent to do severe harm to his/herself or another person.

The questions I have after seeing the news reports:

1. Was this a one-man arrest? I was under the impression that you would have back up or at least a partner present when trying to arrest a woman in a potentially crowded store so there should be another officer's perspective on what happened unless that's not protocol for SLPD (which is possible).

2. The girl had 2 taser marks--one on her chest and one on her stomach. What exactly was she doing that she needed to be tased twice?

3. Dejamon (not her mother) said she was tased at the store and at the police station; however, someone else should have seen that if it happened. Why hasn't a PD rep released a statement saying "X amount of personnel were present at the station and can attest that did not happen?"

[justgo_withit]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

2. The girl had 2 taser marks--one on her chest and one on her stomach. What exactly was she doing that she needed to be tased twice?

Aha! My 30 second googling is of use!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21430136/Taser-accuracy

(this is of course explaining how she could have two marks from one tasering in the store, and not touching the possibility that she was tasered at the police station)

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

2. The girl had 2 taser marks--one on her chest and one on her stomach. What exactly was she doing that she needed to be tased twice?

When you deploy a taser, two prongs shoot out of it about 6-12 inches apart. It's used to create an "arc" to better subdue a subject. Tasers can work with just one contact point, but two are ideal. As someone who has been pepper sprayed, tased, hit with a baton, hit with pepper-ball launchers and generally slapped around I will say that being tased is the least miserable of all less than lethal options police have available. Yeah, it hurts for 5 SECONDS but once that initial charge goes through the average person is good to go. Typically no negative after effects either as opposed to when you pepper spray or baton someone.

This incident is going to be investigated and until some official deems that this officer used excessive force I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and not second guess or criticize based solely on the age of the subject .

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

...but once that initial charge goes through the average person is good to go. Typically no negative after effects either as opposed to when you pepper spray or baton someone.

Researchers and law enforcement experts continue to debate and research the lasting impact of tasing. Based on the ongoing debate and research findings on both sides of the issue, it is not absolute certain that the average person is "good to go" and with no lasting impact. Police departments often do not conduct cohort studies in which people tased in a given year are studied over periods of time. Taser studies are coming from elsewhere and there are few studies on the physical and/or mental effects on people who have been tasered and the span of time through which to examine lasting effects is still being understood. This ongoing debate and research are regarding adults. The debate is stronger for children and there is little to any research on the impact of tasering on children. The research on adults is assumed to be applicable to all humans but that is not definite.

I know that you were giving a general response about tasers to christiangirl's post but baton and pepper spray are not deemed a necessary comparison unless the research question is how tasering compares to other methods--batons and pepper spray. Instead, the research questions in this instance would be (1) is tasing appropriate for people of a young age--children (or the elderly if we were talking about older age); (2) (in line with what you were talking about in your post) does tasering have any lasting impact on the body regardless of whether the person feels pain; and (3) can the impact of tasing be different for children (or the elderly) than adults.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Researchers and law enforcement experts continue to debate and research the lasting impact of tasing. Based on the ongoing debate and research findings on both sides of the issue, it is not absolute certain that the average person is "good to go" and with no lasting impact. Police departments often do not conduct cohort studies in which people tased in a given year are studied over periods of time. Taser studies are coming from elsewhere and there are few studies on the physical and/or mental effects on people who have been tasered and the span of time through which to examine lasting effects is still being understood. This ongoing debate and research are regarding adults. The debate is stronger for children and there is little to any research on the impact of tasering on children. The research on adults is assumed to be applicable to all humans but that is not definite.

I know that you were giving a general response about tasers to christiangirl's post but baton and pepper spray are not deemed a necessary comparison unless the research question is how tasering compares to other methods--batons and pepper spray. Instead, the research questions in this instance would be (1) is tasing appropriate for people of a young age--children (or the elderly if we were talking about older age); (2) (in line with what you were talking about in your post) does tasering have any lasting impact on the body regardless of whether the person feels pain; and (3) can the impact of tasing be different for children (or the elderly) than adults.

I can't speak of any knowledge on the long term effects of tasering, other then the claims of taser manufactures that there are none. I did do some light online research into that before I was tased myself. There have been incidents where people have gone into cardiac arrest following being tased, but I read nothing about long term/short term muscle or nerve damage. I think the best focus group for any sort of study on the long term effects would be law enforcement officers since so many of them have been tased ( I'm also willing to put money down that more cops have been tased overall than civilians). Speaking from personal experience, neither I nor anyone I know of who's been tased in my region (about 600 officers) has had any issues stemming from being tased.

As for the discussion of children being tased, I have to say that children shouldn't be tased and official policies typically state that tasers shouldn't be deployed on children, the elderly, and the mentally disturbed. I must stress the fact that shouldn't be used doesn't always mean can't be used. Every situation and set of circumstances is different.

[TonyB06]

There are bias-based arguments throughout this thread. In a perfect world, no, a 12-year-old sans weapon, should never be tased. But it ain't a perfect world.

In a confrontational situation, a 12-year-old could be a threat, particularly if an officer is dealing with one or two other people at the time.

We're in Victoria Secret. I don't know if suspect was on the move or not, but perhaps the officer could have waited for back up before making the arrest?

Bias. Upthread there was some haze about what the mother was being arrested for. I suspect in the officer's mind if it was drug trafficking or some other hard (dangerous) crime he's arresting her for, he's mentally going to be more predisposed to using necessary physical force to control any situation he encounters, than if he's after a mother whose got, say, 50 parking tickets and no violent criminal record. Can I prove it? No, but that's logical to me.

I think it was Kevin who intimated as much upthread. She's wanted on drug charges? She and anybody who gets in the way is going down hard if it comes to that. Is that right? Who knows, but you do what you need to do to go home.

I do martial arts training with a law enforcement officer in my city. He's told me, if he's in physical confrontation with a woman, he may (stress may) try something less, in terms of physical control technique, than he'd go with in a full-fledged fight with a man, as long as it doesn't jeopardize his safety. So, to me, it's a sliding scale.

am I glad the girl got tased, no. But I could understand the situation if it was as harried as it sounds.

[amIblue?]

I do not believe that a child should be tasered, unless as christiangirl mentioned, that child was armed. As DrPhil mentioned, situations such as this preceded the existence of tasers, so there are alternate ways of handling them.

A child is going to be very distressed witnessing a parent being arrested. Should she have stood back and not interfered? Absolutely, but the fact remains that she is a child whose brain is not fully developed yet who was tasered by an adult (whose brain should be pretty much done, I would hope.)

That being said, all of the articles that I found via google were told from the perspective of the victim. I would like to hear the police department's story and, even more so, from any witnesses on the scene.

[IrishLake]

amIblue, the NBC affiliate in St Louis has commentary from someone who claims to be a witness on their webpage. She says the mom and daughter were in a group of people known to be shoplifters in the mall.

She may be 12, but can a guy determine her age just by looking at her? I'm not saying a cop, I'm saying a guy. Most guys are terrible at knowing age just by sight. When I was 12, I certainly didn't look it, and usually that was intentional.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by IrishLake

amIblue, the NBC affiliate in St Louis has commentary from someone who claims to be a witness on their webpage. She says the mom and daughter were in a group of people known to be shoplifters in the mall.

She may be 12, but can a guy determine her age just by looking at her? I'm not saying a cop, I'm saying a guy. Most guys are terrible at knowing age just by sight. When I was 12, I certainly didn't look it, and usually that was intentional.

When you say commentary, do you mean the comments that any idiot with access to a computer can post? I doubt the credibility of anything I read in the comments section. If the news station interviewed someone and showed the interview on camera, then I would be more likely to give said commentary credibility.

The police officer may not have known she was 12, but she sure as hell doesn't appear to be anywhere near 18. If he's not bright enough to figure out that she is a child, then he's not bright enough to be a police officer.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by IrishLake

She says the mom and daughter were in a group of people known to be shoplifters in the mall.

This 12 year old child cannot win for losing, eh?

Originally Posted by IrishLake

She may be 12, but can a guy determine her age just by looking at her? I'm not saying a cop, I'm saying a guy. Most guys are terrible at knowing age just by sight. When I was 12, I certainly didn't look it, and usually that was intentional.

Following your logic, if age matters, yes I expect adults to be able to gauge age range if not the exact age. We would certainly expect a guy to know whether a female is a girl or a woman in determining whether to legally sex her.

I looked 12 when I was 12. When I tried to look grown, I looked like a foolish 12 year old with crappy lipstick and nail polish with a young body. LOL. Almost like those photos of Dejamon Baker.

I see nothing grown about Dejamon's photos beyond her beautiful shaved head.







That is one of the reasons I posted the photo of the 12 year old white girl on page 1. Does she look young and like a little girl? Does she look like she could fuck a cop up even if there was a claim that she was trying to keep an officer from arresting her mother? Appearance matters 100%.

[IrishLake]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This 12 year old child cannot win for losing, eh?



Following your logic, if age matters, yes I expect adults to be able to gauge age range if not the exact age. We would certainly expect a guy to know whether a female is a girl or a woman in determining whether to legally sex her.

I looked 12 when I was 12. When I tried to look grown, I looked like a foolish 12 year old with crappy makeup and a young body. LOL.

I see nothing grown about Dejamon's photos beyond her beautiful shaved head. That is one of the reasons I posted the photo of the 12 year old white girl on page 1. Does she look young and like a little girl? Does she look like she could fuck a cop up even if there was a claim that she was trying to keep an officer from arresting her mother? Appearance matters 100%.

(I'll agree the shaved head style is beautiful).

As for the white girl, yes she looks young and like a little girl. And yes, she looks fully capable of fucking with a cop if he were arresting her mom (not fucking up a cop).

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by IrishLake

amIblue, the NBC affiliate in St Louis has commentary from someone who claims to be a witness on their webpage. She says the mom and daughter were in a group of people known to be shoplifters in the mall.

A comment on a TV station's website from someone who claims to be a witness? Not a lot of value as far as I'm concerned, especially since she gives "facts" that she would have to know (like the victim's age, which she says is 15, or that the mom was being arrested on drug charges, which I though had been debunked in this thread) somehow other than being a witness. My guess is she's repeating what she heard others in the mall say.

It's pointless for us at GC to speculate or argue about whether the taser use was justified here because (take your pick) the mom was being arrested on drug charges, they were with a gang of known shoplifters, the girl assaulted the officer or whatever. We don't have enough facts to make any reasonable judgments about any of this, and we're not likely to get those facts from sources currently available on the net.

I think that's why DrPhil keeps saying this thread is about whether it's ever okay to use a taser on a 12-year-old, and if it is, when is it okay? The question of whether the specific facts of this case show that it was or wasn't okay under whatever criteria people suggest will have to wait for another day when we have all sides of the story and fully-developed facts. (If we ever have those, that is.)

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I think that's why DrPhil keeps saying this thread is about whether it's ever okay to use a taser on a 12-year-old, and if it is, when is it okay? The question of whether the specific facts of this case show that it was or wasn't okay under whatever criteria people suggest will have to wait for another day when we have all sides of the story and fully-developed facts. (If we ever have those, that is.)

Thank you.

Originally Posted by IrishLake

As for the white girl, yes she looks young and like a little girl. And yes, she looks fully capable of fucking with a cop if he were arresting her mom (not fucking up a cop).

Would it be okay for a police officer to taser her if she did not have a weapon?

[IrishLake]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Would it be okay for a police officer to taser her if she did not have a weapon?

Absofuckinglutely. And that girl looks just like what my own oldest daughter could look like in another 6 years.

[IrishLake]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I think that's why DrPhil keeps saying this thread is about whether it's ever okay to use a taser on a 12-year-old, and if it is, when is it okay? The question of whether the specific facts of this case show that it was or wasn't okay under whatever criteria people suggest will have to wait for another day when we have all sides of the story and fully-developed facts. (If we ever have those, that is.)

If we're keeping it that simple, then my opinion is yes it is ok to use a taser on a 12 year old who is interfering with a police officer making an arrest AS LONG AS he gave fair warning that he would tase her if she didn't stop. If he didn't warn her, then I reserve the right to change my opinion.