Hazing: Is it always bad?

[AOX81]

In my organization interviews or whatever you want to call it are done both ways...member to pledges, pledges to members. If I would not have done these I would have missed out on getting to know a lot of people. Everyone makes up their own questions, it can be two questions or twenty questions. This is not information that needs to be memorized. I realize that a lot of groups use this information unfairly and pretty much ruin things for everyone.

As for the scavenger hunt, we don't place time limits on them. When they get done, they get done. We set ours up so girls get to meet other sororities and fraternities in the area. And it is not set up where the girls are against each other. They combine cars and ride together. And the pledge educators follow them around to make sure that they do not get lost and also to make sure that no one gives them a hard time. Everything is planned ahead of time. Everyone knows exactly where everyone is going to be.

If you are in a Greek organization then I think you should know by now to look both ways when you cross the street. You should have learned that in elementary school. Some people need to take responsibility for their actions! If someone gets hit by a car it's not the organizations fault, it's theirs for being stupid. Yes, I understand that freak accidents happen...one of my sister's boyfriends was hit by a car and killed two and a half weeks ago. I bet you if he had been Greek they would have blamed it on the Greek system some how.

Anyway, have a nice day

[LexiKD]

Well, here's the thing. AOX, you are local right? When I was part of a local that is the exact same mind set I was in. One day, after the fact you will change your mind and it will be too late, you will lose your chapter and that's your own chapter's issues. No matter how small the act, if it is hazing, it is wrong. In NC no matter what it is, it is illegal and that's the end of it.

3D: No reason that you should be in that mind set...you must be new to Tri Delt. I promise DDD didn't get to be such a strong organization with that type of additude.

James and Cream: You rock!

Being Greek to me is about discretionary effort. It matters not what you do not do, it is what you do to go above and beyond the norm and call me crazy that includes not breaking the law.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

LexiKD - Thanks! I never thought about the local to national thing. When I pledged, my sorority had been a local for several years and national for less than two. The local had wonderful women, but hazing was also a part of it. Even after I had been a sister for a while, we did things that would have been considered hazing without us even realizing it until a rep came and told us. The thing about hazing is that many of the people who do it are actually nice people who don't realize how bad it is and not just for the pledges. You can jeopardize the future of your organization. No tradition is worth that.

[LexiKD]

Cream: I AGREE! As a local we did some great stuff but we had only our one chapter on the line. As a national member I feel like it makes you more creative and think about the big picture.

Since becoming a KD, I have learned that you can accomplish the same results through a tough new member program. As a KD new member I pledged my attention and devotion to the betterment of our chapter and our organization. As a local and as a new member of a national group it is hard to see past chapter life. But as a KD, I know that it wasn't just my 65 member chapter that I was working for, it was the other 170,000+ other KDs out there.

As a new member, I had requirements and I felt as if I did deserve my letters, in fact I don't think my pledging is over. I earn my letters everyday by giving back, it didn't end when I was initiated. And no amount of hazing could have made me more loyal.

Locals are more self centered in that respect and it is hard to make groups that have different ideals to be on the same wave length. Traditions are great, but traditions are the root of many accidents...there comes a time and place to move with the times and if your organization is not important enough to see the light then it is unfortunate that one day something bad will happen and it will be too late.

[33girl]

Originally posted by Cream
Even after I had been a sister for a while, we did things that would have been considered hazing without us even realizing it until a rep came and told us. The thing about hazing is that many of the people who do it are actually nice people who don't realize how bad it is and not just for the pledges.

This reminds me of an SNL commercial parody I saw last night, instead of the EPT test it was the "HHT" headache test - you drew blood, waited 2 hours, to see if you had a headache, and then if you did you could medicate it. Ridiculous, obviously.

Here's a hint: If you don't know you were hazed unless someone tells you you were, you weren't! And I don't mean FIPG definitions, I mean what hazing REALLY is. If anyone read The Morning After by Katie Roiphe, she gives a similar example....women do not feel they were sexually harassed until they're told that they were, and then they need to seek counseling. It's all part of the victim mentality in this country.

And people who haze are NOT nice people...ever...they're assholes...and every single one of them should be drummed out of the Greek system. I'm talking about people who beat their pledges and force bottles of vodka down their throats. NOT people who coordinate pledge/sister interviews and scavenger hunts. That is PLEDGING. Not hazing. If my sisters-to-be would have laid a hand on me, I wouldn't have needed a policy or a national rep to tell me something was seriously messed up here!

I don't think there is such a thing as a national pledge program that is right for EVERY chapter...I had no problem getting interviews for my whole chapter (35) but I sure as heck don't expect our chapter at Penn State (100+) to do that! That is called allowing for differences, and while it isn't as easy as making a lot of sweeping generalizations and overcautious rules, I believe it makes for stronger chapters, and stronger chapters make a stronger national organization and Greek system. I think some of the nationals are realizing this and relaxing the highly structured programs that were swept in 6-7 years ago.

Also, paint me purple and call me channelling shulttzz, but the local bashing on here (no matter how euphemistic it may be) really needs to stop. If your local couldn't see the bigger picture and get its act together before a national came in and set you on a path, that's your experience. If locals were all so frigging clueless and horrible, do you think that any of them would be left anywhere? There are good locals and bad locals....there are good chapters of nationals and bad chapters of nationals. Anyone who believes otherwise needs to open their eyes and wake up.

[LexiKD]

33: I hope you are not assuming that I am "bashing" anything.

I was pointing out the different Point of View and there is a difference b/w looking out for one chapter vs an entire organization.

No matter what the intention, hazing is hazing. Some "fun" pledge bonding is hazing and it is unfortunate that some bad events have hurt the rest of us, but it is the responsibility of your organization to have a strong new member program free from anything that is considered hazing.

I'm sure that anyone in favor of a little hazing to help out respect b/w new members would have a different out look after they checked out the green book, I'm sure there would be no discussion after looking at it in black and white and seeing what happend to chapters that do in fact haze.

I don't know why this is even something to battle out.

[Bridget3D]

I'm sure that all of us took part in something that may be considered as hazing. My best friend told me that she had to swear to God in her pledging and initiation ritual, and it is one of the NPC sororities. We just don't broadcast it to everyone.

Please stop chewing me out.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

According to the NPC website this is hazing in case there are any questions, "Hazing is defined as any action or situation with or without consent which recklessly, intentionally or unintentionally endangers the mental or physical health or safety of a student, or creates risk of injury, or causes discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule or which willfully destroys or removes public or private property for the purpose of initiation or admission into or affiliation with, or as a condition for continued membership in a chapter or colony of an NPC member fraternity. All member groups will affirm their policies denouncing hazing and inform their membership of this NPC position denouncing hazing through mailings and through their inter/national magazines."

33girl - Actually, I did not bash locals. I wrote of MY own experience with MY own chapter. I never wrote anything about any other organization. I was injured during a pledging event similar to something that Bridget3D described, and I recounted my own experience as an example of what can potentially go wrong. I knew that I was uncomfortable with what was happening at the time. I knew that I was hazed when I was rushed to an emergency room. Later, I didn't know that some of the things we did as sisters would be considered hazing until our International HQ and NPC very specifically outlined what was hazing. And yes, the sisters were and still are nice and good people. For the record there was never any alcohol or violence which is hazing. The word for people who engage in this behavior is not "assholes" but criminals. My concern is not about scavanger hunts or pledge/sister interviews, but blindfolding people and leading them into the woods. The potential for injury is high.
I'm not sure what SNL and Katie Roiphe have to do with this. I am not a part of any "victim mentality" despite what you may believe.

Bridget3D - I agree many of us were hazed. I'm not chewing you out. I just don't want any of your pledges injured as I was. Blindfolding can be dangerous. I just think you and your sorority need to weigh the consequences of a potential injury against the benefits of this event.

[LexiKD]

3D: You are sure we all took part in hazing? You guessed incorrectly.

I was part of a colony, my New Member Ed was a national officer. She began my chapter on the right track and I will do everything in my power to contiune that.

No one is "chewing out" anyone, we are talking about safty.

[33girl]

Cream - I PM'ed you. For the record, I was not referring to your experience in specific but a general mentality in the US that is not limited to Greeks. I wasn't sure how to put that all in my post without writing a book though.

Lexi- it may seem as though locals are only looking out for themselves to you, but in reality, at schools where the majority of groups are local, I think the bonds can be far stronger just because they have no national to go to, they have to rely on each other. It just sounded to me that you were saying to AOX81 that her chapter was hazing and they would eventually get caught. I found that very uncool, and considering some of the unfounded crap that got said about your chapter on here, which you and your sisters were rightly ticked about, it disturbed me that you would turn around and say things like that to someone else.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Got it! Thanks!

[LexiKD]

33: I see your points, but AOX said they have hunts. New member hunts are written in the Green Book as hazing. No matter how safe and non hurtful they are meant to be.

I have said nothing that is unfouded. I was attempting to say that an attitude of "a little hazing is OK" will eventually catch up with a group and with my experience I have learned to see that a little hazing is not OK and when I had to begin thinking for not just a chapter is when that changed.

I'm not bashing, just pointing out the facts. I have appreciation for locals, I was in one.

To each their own.

[kristiAZD]

I know this is going to anger a lot of people, but I just need to say it. Reading the last couple pages of posts made me laugh. Not in a "it's funny" type of way, but rather a "look what our world is turing into" type of way. I'm sorry, I was on the Executive Board of my council and I met with Nationals and am fully aware of risks. But do any of you realize that there is a risk in ANYTHING you do? Maybe some of you people should hole up in your rooms and not go outside for the rest of your life beacuse something bad MIGHT happen to you. Walking out your door a brick might fall from the sky and knock you on the head. The point is, YOU NEVER KNOW. It is sad to me that we as a society are so afraid to do anything anymore that we are all becoming a group of scared, sad people. I, IN NO WAY approve of beatings, forced activity, etc. but visiting your sisters?? GIVE ME A BREAK!! I would have NEVER met all of my sisters if I had not done visits with them. I wouldn't have taken the time. I have a small chapter, so it was easy for us. They were the most fun and memorable thing I did while pledging. I met with sisters and talked to them, wrote down their address and phone numbers, life goals, etc. They in turn wrote me a nice letter and gave me stickers. As an active member I looked forward to these times with the new girls the most. I get to know people more in that alone time than any group activity EVER could.
It was true bonding and I have the pleasure of saying I KNOW ALL of my sisters inside and out, and I NEVER had to memorize anything. I WANTED TO KNOW THEM. And now, beacuse our society is out of control, we are not allowed. Our sisterhood does not seem nearly as close as it once was.

Pretty soon it is going to escalate to the point where we will not even be allowed to touch eachother. This is why this whole issue is just so sad.

[kristiAZD]

33girl, I just want to say that I completely agree with you.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

KristiAZD - What are visits?