Teacher fired for premarital sex?

[WinniBug]

I just signed my contract for next year a couple of weeks ago...

"PARISH may, at its opinion, immediately terminate this agreement ... for any of the following reasons:
1. Personal conduct or lifestyle contrary to moral or religious doctrines or teachings of the Catholic Church or the Norms of the Diocese
2. Being guilty or engaging in any acts of immorality, intemperance, insubordination, unprofessional conduct..."

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

There's a difference between understanding that something someone did is sinful and judging that person for what they did.

When was she judged? The school didn't pass judgement on her character (or slander her, label her with a scarlet letter, etc) they just expressed that she wasn't following the guidelines of her (extremely vague) contract and said she could not work there on those grounds. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying I don't see a judgement in that.

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

Lying is a sin. If she lied, and they found out by confronting her about the conception date later, they could have fired her for that, too. At least that's what the clause on the employment application leaves her open to.

This.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

And yes, the other option besides my preferred "LIE" is saying something like, "Are you asking me to tell you about my sex life? I find that question inappropriate for a Christian setting" or something.

Absolutely. This is the answer that would have been best, though they asked her so out of the blue, I don't blame her for giving an automatic reaction.

Originally Posted by WinniBug

NOW, I teach at a Catholic school and it's a whole different ballgame! Us Catholics, we're such lushes..lol

This made me lol.

Honestly, I think the whole thing is totally effed up but it all boils down to the contract. I hate to say it but, if it was on paper, then there's really nothing to be done, she knew what would happen. If it's not then sue away!!

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

When was she judged? The school didn't pass judgement on her character (or slander her, label her with a scarlet letter, etc) they just expressed that she wasn't following the guidelines of her (extremely vague) contract and said she could not work there on those grounds. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying I don't see a judgement in that.

They told the entire school that she got fired for fornication.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

They told the entire school that she got fired for fornication.

Which would technically be true. However there's not much detail about how that was done at this point and whether it itself is inappropriate and something she could win a suit over.

[UGAalum94]

Anyone else wonder if maybe there were questions about her relationship before the baby was conceived?

I wonder if perhaps there were some scandalous rumors and the conception date confirmed them.

Sometimes, when it appears that one course of action is just so much more reasonable, here just not asking about conception date, it makes me wonder what factors drove the decision. Sure, it could be wanting to avoid the cost of her leave; it could be that they are a certain kind of no one gets any privacy kind of Christians; but I also wonder if there's more to the story of her own behavior.

Public teachers in Georgia lose their certificates for crimes of moral turpitude, and that's about as specific as it gets. It sort of sets up the subjectivity you see here, but I think it's rarely used.

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

They told the entire school that she got fired for fornication.

That's not a judgement, it's a fact. It'd be different if they told the school "You're teacher's gone because she's a filthy whore," but they didn't. Again, I don't agree in the least with how they violated her privacy but there's a difference between passing judgement and stating a fact is all I'm trying to say.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

That's not a judgement, it's a fact. It'd be different if they told the school "You're teacher's gone because she's a filthy whore," but they didn't. Again, I don't agree in the least with how they violated her privacy but there's a difference between passing judgement and stating a fact is all I'm trying to say.

If you think there wasn't any judgment being thrown around here, you're naive.

I still think this would've been a good opportunity for the school to show an example of the great Christian concept of forgiveness.

[SWTXBelle]

I know some have applauded the school for not appearing to draw a distinction between her transgression with her fiance and some slut puppy/whore dog who was sleeping with anything that moved, but I think the fact that she was in a committed relationship which lead to marriage should have been a consideration - "Go forth and sin no more", as Jesus said. She MARRIED the man, and is hardly what I would consider a bad role model. How many of those on the school board were virgins when they married? Can we check and see the birth dates and weights of their children and do the math? So if she had snuck off and had an abortion that would've been okay, because no one would have had to know? I totally understand the need to model a Christian life - but that should also include the acknowledgement that it is possible to make a mistake and reform yourself, as she apparently did. What, they didn't give her a scarlet "F"? I'm far too familiar with this type of sanctimonious holier-than-thou Christianity - and it stinks.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I know some have applauded the school for not appearing to draw a distinction between her transgression with her fiance and some slut puppy/whore dog who was sleeping with anything that moved, but I think the fact that she was in a committed relationship which lead to marriage should have been a consideration - "Go forth and sin no more", as Jesus said.

Eh, I'm kind of over the slut shaming myself. "At least she wasn't a slut" perpetuates a negative attitude towards women and sex.

If you agree to a set of rules, it's not really any more OK to break them just because. Forgiveness requires penitence, and I don't think she was particularly sorry, nor IMO should she have been. But she shouldn't have worked for that school if she was going to violate the rules and/or was going to fess up to it.

She MARRIED the man, and is hardly what I would consider a bad role model. How many of those on the school board were virgins when they married? Can we check and see the birth dates and weights of their children and do the math? So if she had snuck off and had an abortion that would've been okay, because no one would have had to know?

There's breaking the rules and there's getting caught. If you're going to break the rules, then don't get caught. There's nothing more OK about having an abortion (in their minds) and that's a misleading road to go down. She's probably not the only one who's violated the code but she got caught. Just like how "everyone" speeds but only a few people get caught. If the people enforcing this rule are hypocrites and have violated it themselves or allowed others to skate, that's one thing, but you don't really know that one way or the other.

I totally understand the need to model a Christian life - but that should also include the acknowledgement that it is possible to make a mistake and reform yourself, as she apparently did. What, they didn't give her a scarlet "F"? I'm far too familiar with this type of sanctimonious holier-than-thou Christianity - and it stinks.

Why is there an assumption that she wants to "reform?" I get the whole forgiveness aspect but if she's not sorry for what she did then she's not really going to go "sin no more" is she?

I hate this aspect of religious schooling and think it should be handled differently, but I think some of the arguments are ridiculous too. I'm basing my opinions on the understanding that she signed a contract. If that's wrong, I'll re-evaluate. But assuming she did, the school had every right to fire her, even if that makes them asshats. And telling them they should have forgiven her instead is trying to tell them what they should believe which is a road that I think we would prefer not to go down ourselves.

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

If you think there wasn't any judgment being thrown around here, you're naive.

I never said there wasn't ANY judgement present, I said the isolated act of admitting why the teacher was fired was not a judgement in itself. If you think it was, you're wrong.

I second what DF said about forgiveness. It would involve expressing remorse and it seems she hasn't (and no one here is saying she should have). Her personal life was her own business and the school shouldn't have asked or told others once they found out IMO. However, they did ask if she'd fornicated and she admitted she had. Presuming there's a clause in this mythical contract that she signed about fornication being an offense worthy of dismissal, she either shouldn't have done it or refused to answer the question based on its impropriety. She instead confessed to breaking a rule, unashamedly and unapologetically. Depending on how the rest of the school found out, her best bet is to sue for a violation of privacy I would think.

Honestly, I think this whole thing is despicable. I grew up in schools like this and I still think it's awful. The school was way out of line in probing into her sex life then discussing it with others after (both of those have some big "ifs" as we don't know the whole story). I don't agree with firing someone whose "questionable morals" have not caused harm to others or themselves, but that's just me. If it's in the paperwork, she had no choice but to comply or receive the sanction she was warned of, as much as that sucks.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

Honestly, I think this whole thing is despicable. I grew up in schools like this and I still think it's awful. The school was way out of line in probing into her sex life then discussing it with others after (both of those have some big "ifs" as we don't know the whole story). I don't agree with firing someone whose "questionable morals" have not caused harm to others or themselves, but that's just me. If it's in the paperwork, she had no choice but to comply or receive the sanction she was warned of, as much as that sucks.

Exactly. I personally intend to NEVER work at a place that requires me to give up autonomy of my body, my mind or my beliefs. I may not always have that luxury, a lot of people don't. Food and shelter trump a lot of principles. But that's where I've drawn my line in the sand, hopefully I never have to cross it. But if I signed up for it I'd lie as necessary and hide how I felt, but I wouldn't be shocked if I'd gotten fired either.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

I never said there wasn't ANY judgement present, I said the isolated act of admitting why the teacher was fired was not a judgement in itself. If you think it was, you're wrong.

I second what DF said about forgiveness. It would involve expressing remorse and it seems she hasn't (and no one here is saying she should have). Her personal life was her own business and the school shouldn't have asked or told others once they found out IMO. However, they did ask if she'd fornicated and she admitted she had. Presuming there's a clause in this mythical contract that she signed about fornication being an offense worthy of dismissal, she either shouldn't have done it or refused to answer the question based on its impropriety. She instead confessed to breaking a rule, unashamedly and unapologetically. Depending on how the rest of the school found out, her best bet is to sue for a violation of privacy I would think.

Honestly, I think this whole thing is despicable. I grew up in schools like this and I still think it's awful. The school was way out of line in probing into her sex life then discussing it with others after (both of those have some big "ifs" as we don't know the whole story). I don't agree with firing someone whose "questionable morals" have not caused harm to others or themselves, but that's just me. If it's in the paperwork, she had no choice but to comply or receive the sanction she was warned of, as much as that sucks.

I said the school could use this as an example of being able to show the Christian principle of forgiveness. According to Jesus, whether she "expresses remorse" is neither here nor there when it comes to loving others as you would love yourself. If he'd been so cutthroat it's unlikely he would have such a huge following today. Of course, most people aren't going to be able to REALLY forgive every time they should, but trying is better than nothing.

Nothing's gonna change my mind on that. I've spent years dealing with the "do as I say not as I do" approach to Christianity and it irks me for the people that really do try their hardest to remember what Jesus had to say about how to treat others.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

I said the school could use this as an example of being able to show the Christian principle of forgiveness. According to Jesus, whether she "expresses remorse" is neither here nor there when it comes to loving others as you would love yourself. If he'd been so cutthroat it's unlikely he would have such a huge following today. Of course, most people aren't going to be able to REALLY forgive every time they should, but trying is better than nothing.

Nothing's gonna change my mind on that. I've spent years dealing with the "do as I say not as I do" approach to Christianity and it irks me for the people that really do try their hardest to remember what Jesus had to say about how to treat others.

Like the snake said to the man he bit, "You knew what I was when you first picked me up." Don't go to/be employed by a school that espouses certain beliefs with a degree of rigidity and expect to get a pass if you get busted.

I don't think this kind of Christianity is very Christian either, but I'm guessing at some point the school's policies threw someone else under the bus for this or that and this teacher didn't say squat.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

I said the school could use this as an example of being able to show the Christian principle of forgiveness. According to Jesus, whether she "expresses remorse" is neither here nor there when it comes to loving others as you would love yourself. If he'd been so cutthroat it's unlikely he would have such a huge following today. Of course, most people aren't going to be able to REALLY forgive every time they should, but trying is better than nothing.

Nothing's gonna change my mind on that. I've spent years dealing with the "do as I say not as I do" approach to Christianity and it irks me for the people that really do try their hardest to remember what Jesus had to say about how to treat others.

There's nothing that says they don't "love" her, but Jesus did say "go and sin no more" not "go and sin more if you feel like it." Pretty much every concept of forgiveness whether personal or religious requires the expression of remorse. I would be more inclined to agree with you if she said not "Please let me keep my job" but "I'm sorry I sinned." She might have said the former but we have no indication that she said the latter. And even then, transgressions have consequences. "I'm sorry I broke the lamp" leads to "I forgive you, but you will need to pay from your allowance until you replace it."

Assuming that the school board/officials don't practice what they preach is your own bias. That's fine, just realize that there's no evidence of that either way at this point. We don't know if they looked at her aghast and yelled "SINNER! SHUN THE SINNER!" or said "I'm very sorry but you know that this was against your contract and we have to let you go."

[SWTXBelle]

As to the question of whether or not she felt the need to "reform" - she's married. To the man in question. So if the question is what kind of example she is, I'd argue that she is a good example of how to live a good, not perfect, life. The students are watching and learning - but what is it they are learning?

Again, the school may have been following the letter of the "law" as in contract, but not the spirit. It seems to be another example of a zero tolerance type of rule, which have always struck me as a cop-out. Life is difficult, and messy, and requires discernment. Every situation is different, and should be dealt with individually.