Evolution on "trial" in Kansas

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by honeychile
But if a parent has a particular theory that they want to espouse, they should say something to the effect that While the Big Bang theory sounds good, our family believes in Toaster Worship, and discuss the pros and cons with the child.

Exactly. If Toaster Worship is your thing, that's great, but I don't want my tax $$ being used to pay public schools to teach kids Toaster Worship -- or, for that matter, Creationism.

Why do some people think that Christian theories should be taught in public schools? That baffles me.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Why do some people think that Christian theories should be taught in public schools? That baffles me.

Well almost all schools in the Western wolrd teach general Christian theories , the problem comes about when people demand their own specific variety of Christian theory.


I don't get why this issue keeps coming up... I mean wans't it dealt with decades ago? Why doesn''t it seem to come up in other 'Christian' nations?

[KSig RC]

Here's a great article on the topic . . .

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by RACooper
Well almost all schools in the Western wolrd teach general Christian theories , the problem comes about when people demand their own specific variety of Christian theory.

Is that true? What other Christian theories -- and specifically theories with no scientific basis -- are taught in public schools?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Is that true? What other Christian theories -- and specifically theories with no scientific basis -- are taught in public schools?

Are you asking about science classes only?

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
You can try to muddy the waters between adaptation and evolution but they are not the same thing.

Adaptation is a part of Evolutionary Theory. Adaptation can be tested in a microscopic scale that goes from hypothesis, testing to conclusions and repetition of the results by more than one group. That is the business of Science. No one will believe you if only you can do the examination and get the result in Science.

I assure you God does care about whether we believe his Word.

God's Word is not what is being tested in evolution... Evolution has no words to be tested... It is just what occurs with repetition over cycles...

Evolution has not been proven, thus it is a theory, a work in progress, with many flaws, such as carbon dating inaccuracies and the lack of a "missing link."

I am not going to debate evolution vs creationism, but I am going to state again that - neither one should be taught as fact in the science class of a public school exclusively.

Yes, I agree, evolution is a work in progress which means, we scientists will always have an inquisitive minds with lifelong careers pursuing our very own questions for answers... Then as soon as we get one answer, then we have another question...

Whereas, in Christian Creationism, one is NOT allowed to questioned God's intent...

So why is killing, wrong? Animals do it everyday... And if you eat of the flesh, you are eating a killed animal--so isn't killing a sin? Can you reconcile that difference between the Spirit vs. living on Earth...

And stuffing down our throats that ONLY your beliefs are valid from your OWN perspective, God forbid you EVER suffer from ill will...

Hence, I will pray for you...

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by honeychile
FWIW, here's how I see it: I have no problem at all with any and all theories of how we came to be being taught. In fact, I would want ALL theories discussed as that, theories - Big Bang, Evolution, Creationism, Toaster Worship, whatever. I think it's rather limiting to a child to not teach ALL the options.

I understand what you are saying Honeychile, however, how do you teach a basic bonehead biology 101 to a group of young people without those stauch Christian religious conservatives entering the room telling you that: 1) Gene mutations are a manifestion of God's Intelligent Design for make better humans; 2) but meanwhile, you have a loved one dying of cancer due to massive mutations in their metastatic tumor cells...

Evolution as a theory is not what is at stake here. It is the introduction of a religion in a science class that is the problem...

How do we researchers begin to discuss basic chemistry that can be easily tested by various machines with predictability and repetition and then introduce a God that ordained that process to occur and why should we change it???

Same goes for physics and astronomy... It is NOT because we scientists added our own perception of what we imagine what happened, because if you are a "real scientist" there would be no shame to your game... It is because we have tested and re-tested it and this is what the results are and other folks have repeated the same tests and get the same results...

I mean, dayum, protons, electrons and neutrons are in atoms... These things can be measured and are readily...

Can God be measured by human hands?

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
Are you asking about science classes only?

I'm mainly interested in that but wouldn't mind hearing about other classes as well. I've been out of school for a long time so I can't say I know much about what kids are being taught these days.

[lyrica9]

plain and simple, evolution and creationism are both theories. fine if you want to teach them both, but not in the same class or context. evolution is a scientific theory, creationism is a religious theory.

i'm all for having kids take religious theory classes that discuss theories of all religions so they can be better informed and to perhaps iradicate some of the stereotypes and misconceptions of people of certain religions that seem to be rampant these days.

but the idea of teaching biblical passages in a science class is just weird to me. i can't remember ever having been taught any sort of theory on the beginning of the earth in any level of schooling, so i guess Texas' current policy is to ignore it all together.

[ADPi Conniebama]

So you would have me believe that the Earth (and the Universe for that matter) is only 6000 years old or so? What pray tell supports that "theory"? The dinosaurs or other extinct species aren't mentioned in the Bible

Job 40:15 - Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

Isaiah 27:1 - In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

(RACOOPER) Dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible.

What pray tell supports that "theory"?
(I was gonna cut and paste but this was easier.) http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp

Again I just want evolution to be taught as a theory, not fact.

I am not going to take on the scientific GC community because well obviously I don't know EVERYTHING. I just don't want my tax dollars to pay for children to be taught "theory" as fact. And, just to make things clear, I don't want religion taught to children at public schools, in science classes, either because, I wouldn't want some Church of Christ teacher to teach a Baptist student their religious beliefs. (nothing against Church of Christ - I just used them as an example)

[RACooper]

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
So you would have me believe that the Earth (and the Universe for that matter) is only 6000 years old or so? What pray tell supports that "theory"? The dinosaurs or other extinct species aren't mentioned in the Bible

Job 40:15 - Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

Isaiah 27:1 - In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

(RACOOPER) Dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible.

Ah but the Bible only refers to one "dinosaur" in the form of Levuathan...

What pray tell supports that "theory"?
(I was gonna cut and paste but this was easier.) http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp

Again I just want evolution to be taught as a theory, not fact.

Where as this site uses the approach that the lack of evidence of our ancestorial remains is proof that evolution is wrong (incomplete mayb, but flawed no). Creationists are willing to use lack of proof as a an arguement to support themselves, yet are unwilling to accept ample proof that they are wrong.

As for the website itself - even if the challenging of geological, astronimical, and anthropological dates where backed up with concrete and broad support - the dates and "facts" refute the Creationist arguements for a literal interpretation of the Bible.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
Again I just want evolution to be taught as a theory, not fact.

I am not going to take on the scientific GC community because well obviously I don't know EVERYTHING. I just don't want my tax dollars to pay for children to be taught "theory" as fact. And, just to make things clear, I don't want religion taught to children at public schools, in science classes...

So where does one start to teach "BASIC CONCEPTS" in science classes that must be KNOWN to go further to build a foundation...

For example: There are 2 hydrogens that ionically bind to one oxygen to form a water molecule. Many water molecules are visible in 3 forms: gas, liquid, solid. The amount of water in any form is a determination of "MASS". Mass is the atomic number given to an atom as a measure of atomic mass units. The more you increase amu's you reach the number of moles. Moles is measured in terms of Avogadro's number: 6.0233 X 10^-23...

These are time tested proven facts and theorems with mathematical calculations that transcend into the deep recesses of the Universe...

A water molecule will "look" the same if it is 1 million light years away verses 1 second away... Either way, it is STILL a water molecule...

The scientists determine these kinds of things with machines. There are several ways of doing it, but usually they use either a mass spectra analysis or nuclear magnetic resonance...

And that is how science is built... One step at a time...

Why H2O is the way it is is not a question that scientists try to answer because to us, it is irrelevant to us--water is there, why it is there is a better question to us that we like to answer... And how did some bacteria evolved a "way" to "nucleate water" to make ice is more interesting to us even moreso...

But why H2O has to be water--that is something that the religious right can ponder...

You are arguing epistemology... Look that word up and go from there...

[RACooper]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Is that true? What other Christian theories -- and specifically theories with no scientific basis -- are taught in public schools?

Well modern 'western' society is based upon Christian principles and theories of morals, ethics, and society - so any of the social sciences are bound to touch upon general Christian theories.

[honeychile]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
I understand what you are saying Honeychile, however, how do you teach a basic bonehead biology 101 to a group of young people without those stauch Christian religious conservatives entering the room telling you that: 1) Gene mutations are a manifestion of God's Intelligent Design for make better humans; 2) but meanwhile, you have a loved one dying of cancer due to massive mutations in their metastatic tumor cells...

Evolution as a theory is not what is at stake here. It is the introduction of a religion in a science class that is the problem...

How do we researchers begin to discuss basic chemistry that can be easily tested by various machines with predictability and repetition and then introduce a God that ordained that process to occur and why should we change it???

Same goes for physics and astronomy... It is NOT because we scientists added our own perception of what we imagine what happened, because if you are a "real scientist" there would be no shame to your game... It is because we have tested and re-tested it and this is what the results are and other folks have repeated the same tests and get the same results...

I mean, dayum, protons, electrons and neutrons are in atoms... These things can be measured and are readily...

I understand what you're saying, too. I suppose I'm saying what I was taught in school - here are ALL the theories, take your pick. I would challenge these boneheaded children to consider, if they want to believe in God or Toast Worship, who or what created those atoms, protons, neutrons, etc, and why He or It gave us the ability to think, to use wisdom to change the wrongs of the world.

Can God be measured by human hands?

Of course not! That's what makes Him God, and we His creations!

[ADPi Conniebama]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet

You are arguing epistemology... Look that word up and go from there...

I am not arguing anything I am just stating for the last time. Public schools should not teach "theory" (or opinion) as FACT.
Public schools should not teach the "theory of evolution" as a scientific fact. The End.

AKA_Monet we all get it you are a scientist or a scientist wannabe. This thread does not lead me to "argue" with you about evolution. You have the right to believe what ever you want to believe, and study whatever you want to study. I respect your right to flex your scientific muscles on GC however you are arguing with yourself about, God knows what, when I was making a statement about how public schools shouldn't teach scientific theory vs scientific fact.