Supreme Court VRA Decision

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Not to mention the time that is required to go get it. I had to replace my birth certificate which required me to make a trip to the state capital in the middle of the day.

Really??!? I totally disagree with Kevin's assertions, but I had to replace my birth certificate about a year ago to get a passport, and just went to country records department and had a duplicate made. Are you sure you were required to go to the state capital or perhaps that's just the well-meaning, but gasoline-guzzling information you received?

[AOE-7]

Originally Posted by agzg

These weren't the question. My question was do they have birth certificates with their married names on them? About half of married women do not. Because birth certificate is not something one "has" to change with marriage, like a driver's license, etc.



So, you need to buy a birth certificate, to buy a state ID. And this doesn't discourage low income populations how?

I'm sure responsible adults never lose things. They also never have fires or floods.

I have never ever heard of a birth certificate with a married name on it. It's a birth certificate - your information as of the time you were born. Your marriage license accompanies that.

I've used my birth certificate, with my marriage license (as Kevin stated, 2 things that responsible adults have and don't lose, and register at courthouses or whatever in case your personal one should ever be dstroyed in a fire or whatever) to obtain a drivers license with my married name on it, and then I was able to use that to obtain a passport.

There are so many different forms of id available, that I just dont see how not bothering to get one is really an excuse. Doesn't have to be a drivers license. Just an ID. Something maybe the public libraries should be able to issue, or something similar...

[agzg]

Originally Posted by AOE-7

I have never ever heard of a birth certificate with a married name on it. It's a birth certificate - your information as of the time you were born. Your marriage license accompanies that.

I've used my birth certificate, with my marriage license (as Kevin stated, 2 things that responsible adults have and don't lose, and register at courthouses or whatever in case your personal one should ever be dstroyed in a fire or whatever) to obtain a drivers license with my married name on it, and then I was able to use that to obtain a passport.

There are so many different forms of id available, that I just dont see how not bothering to get one is really an excuse. Doesn't have to be a drivers license. Just an ID. Something maybe the public libraries should be able to issue, or something similar...

From the study the DeltaBetaBaby linked:

Documentation proving citizenship often does not reflect the citizen's current name. Many of those who possess ready documentation of their citizenship do not have documentation that reflects their current name. For example, survey results show that only 48% of voting-age women with ready access to their U.S. birth certificates have a birth certificate with current legal name, and only 66% of voting age women with ready access to any proof of citizenship have a document with current legal name. Using 2000 census citizen voting-age population data, this means that as many as 32 million voting-age women may have available only proof of citizenship documents that do not reflect their current name.

This means that, say, you need to get an ID card, because you don't have a driver's license, but you lost your birth certificate and marriage license in a fire or flood (it's more than likely you'd lose both together). So then you have to go get a birth certificate, a copy of your marriage license, etc. etc. etc, THEN go get a state ID - this is getting nutty.

And it's not like it's that unlikely - lots of people lost everything in the floods that happened in the midwest this year. And in the tornadoes in Oklahoma. And in Hurricane Sandy. And the wildfires in Colorado.

For folks that are already disadvantaged (don't have a vehicle, the DMV isn't located in a place that's readily accessible by public transportation, the elderly are in homes where they don't do this type of transport but do transport to vote, the public transportation system in a city is unreliable) - these all add up to greater barriers to voting than you or I have. And let's remember that driving is a privilege while voting is a right.

[DrPhil]

Kevin, this is where I must ask about the socioeconomic diversity of your home and work environments; and whether you have any substantial dealings with different groups of people other than defendants.

Ineptitude is not the central issue here unless your contention is that everyone who does not fit ideal lives and outcomes are inept. If that is what you are contending, you are an illustration of why social inequalities are pervasive in the world. Your post is practically a mirror of what the power elite around the world have said to label and minimize people who do not fit a certain mold.

Generally speaking, and beyond voting rights, voting throughout the history of the United States of America has never required a great deal of aptitude, consciousness, and critical thought. Certain political activists and scholars have challenged American citizens for generations to critique their own thought processes, challenge politicians and the party system, do not fall for the hoopla, and to inform themselves. Again, generally speaking, American voters have proven time and time again that they want quick information and only just enough information for a quick outcome. Therefore, what constitutes aptitude is definitely subjective. Does aptitude mean having a voter ID, does it mean having transportation to the voting precinct, does it mean being informed and knowing more than just the politicians' names and that you like their convictions on select topics, etc.? And can we assume that people who do not have what we consider aptitude are truly inept? There are people who do not have a voter ID or transportation to the voter precinct but they have been researching and critiquing these politicians more than I have.

So, let us not pretend as though aptitude is the central issue when it comes to voting. Aptitude is only what political parties (all political parties) selectively preach about when they want to prove some point. I am all for Voter's Rights and I would love for people across communities to have access to the things that I have access to (a job, access to correct information, social security card, driver's license, voter ID, etc.). Until that happens, we need to stop pretending as though everyone has access to the same resources and information. We need to stop pretending the average person who does not have access is lazy or inept.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Kevin, this is where I must ask about the socioeconomic diversity of your home and work environments; and whether you have any substantial dealings with different groups of people other than defendants.

I do quite a bit of pro bono in the juvenile deprived courts here in OKC, so I do deal with all levels of socioeconomic status and cultural/racial diversity. In fact, believe it or not, I'm a huge advocate of culturally competent approaches for Child Welfare workers and have some pretty good war stories in that department.

Thing is, my meth moms, black/latino/whatever etc., are capable of obtaining proper identification. Seriously, if these folks can do it, so can anyone in the world.

Ineptitude is not the central issue here unless your contention is that everyone who does not fit ideal lives and outcomes are inept. If that is what you are contending, you are an illustration of why social inequalities are pervasive in the world. Your post is practically a mirror of what the power elite around the world have said to label and minimize people who do not fit a certain mold.

I hardly qualify as "power elite," but I'll take the compliment. I'm simply stating that obtaining proper ID, at least in Oklahoma, where all 77 counties have twice voted against Obama, where we have voter ID laws, it's not difficult to get an ID.

Yes, if you lose your birth certificate, you're going to have to jump through some hoops, but if you can make a photocopy of some acceptable form of ID, (bank records and utility records can work), you'll be fine. This can all be done by mail.

But responsible adults keep copies of these things. I don't care what your culture or race is. Stupid is not a culture or race. Speaking from experience, it knows no cultural or racial barriers.

Generally speaking, and beyond voting rights, voting throughout the history of the United States of America has never required a great deal of aptitude, consciousness, and critical thought. Certain political activists and scholars have challenged American citizens for generations to critique their own thought processes, challenge politicians and the party system, do not fall for the hoopla, and to inform themselves. Again, generally speaking, American voters have proven time and time again that they want quick information and only just enough information for a quick outcome. Therefore, what constitutes aptitude is definitely subjective. Does aptitude mean having a voter ID, does it mean having transportation to the voting precinct, does it mean being informed and knowing more than just the politicians' names and that you like their convictions on select topics, etc.? And can we assume that people who do not have what we consider aptitude are truly inept? There are people who do not have a voter ID or transportation to the voter precinct but they have been researching and critiquing these politicians more than I have.

You don't have to have any of those things in Oklahoma if you vote by absentee ballot. Truthfully speaking, the only way you fail to vote here is because of a lack of preparation or a lack of responsibility on your own part or a combination thereof.

We need to stop pretending the average person who does not have access is lazy or inept.

I disagree. An 80+ year old person can arrange for transportation (most metros provide something for the elderly) to go to the proper places to obtain the proper documentation. It's not like they have jobs at that age.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Kevin

if you can make a photocopy of some acceptable form of ID, (bank records and utility records can work), you'll be fine.

What makes these an acceptable form of ID? AFAIK, it's the signature. So why would you consider a photo ID obtained by matching signatures at the DMV more trustworthy than matching signatures at the polling place?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

What makes these an acceptable form of ID? AFAIK, it's the signature. So why would you consider a photo ID obtained by matching signatures at the DMV more trustworthy than matching signatures at the polling place?

No, it's the address printed on them. All of these will work as a secondary ID in the U.S.

Consular Matricula card, Employment photo ID with either Pay stub or W2,
Bank statement or utility bill with name and current address, Social Security card (must be signed) or SSA record earnings statement with current address, US Selective Service Card, Copy of official police report related to the theft of ID with name and current address, for any person under the age of 18, an affidavit signed by the parent or legal guardian, school photo identification along with a report card or other proof of current enrollment
Oklahoma lifetime hunting or fishing license, marriage certificate (Certified English Translation, if applicable), Separation or divorce judgment, Car registration or title or security verification form issued to the applicant with current address.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Kevin

No, it's the address printed on them. All of these will work as a secondary ID in the U.S.

Consular Matricula card, Employment photo ID with either Pay stub or W2,
Bank statement or utility bill with name and current address, Social Security card (must be signed) or SSA record earnings statement with current address, US Selective Service Card, Copy of official police report related to the theft of ID with name and current address, for any person under the age of 18, an affidavit signed by the parent or legal guardian, school photo identification along with a report card or other proof of current enrollment
Oklahoma lifetime hunting or fishing license, marriage certificate (Certified English Translation, if applicable), Separation or divorce judgment, Car registration or title or security verification form issued to the applicant with current address.

Okay, so what are we trying to accomplish by requiring photo ID at a polling place? Verify that someone is who they say they are? None of these things do that.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I do quite a bit of pro bono in the juvenile deprived courts here in OKC, so I do deal with all levels of socioeconomic status and cultural/racial diversity. In fact, believe it or not, I'm a huge advocate of culturally competent approaches for Child Welfare workers and have some pretty good war stories in that department.

Thing is, my meth moms, black/latino/whatever etc., are capable of obtaining proper identification. Seriously, if these folks can do it, so can anyone in the world.

I was asking whether your legal profession is the only exposure you have with diverse socioeconomic, cultural, and ethnic environments. Unfortunately, yes, you only have such exposure through the legal profession.

The "if they can do it, anyone can do it" logic does not work with every social outcome. I know people with terminal degrees, extensive resume', and a vigorous voting record who came from impoverished environments. I would never use these people as models to quite literally say "if they can do it, anyone can do it" because I know even they had resources that the average person in their environment does not have. Their positive outcome represents a small percent of the outcomes of the other people from these environments. They can be role models for others but people should never take "if I can do it, anyone can do it" too literally. It is presumptuous to truly believe that everyone can do everything at the same level. Using the inept argument is placing thousands of people in a box that disproportonately impacts people of lower socioeconomic status and racial and ethnic minorities. Are people saying a large segment of poor people and minorities are inept? I believe in personal accountability and agency but people are not inept just because things do not go the way I, personally, would prefer.

***
I spoke with someone earlier who was saying the VRA was not gotten rid of completely, changes were made, so what is all the big fuss. I explained that small changes lead to big changes. We know the routine and we know the game. It happens in all aspects of life where people follow the "slow but steady wins the race" routine. Let us not act brand new.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I was asking whether your legal profession is the only exposure you have with diverse socioeconomic, cultural, and ethnic environments. Unfortunately, yes, you only have such exposure through the legal profession.

It's a pretty intimate level of exposure. Culture is often a big tool for me in choosing the most compatible services for my clients. For example, if my clients are Latino, I have a number of Latino-focused resources. If they're black, I tend to send them to service providers who are also black. The tribes kind of have their own thing going and YMMV from tribe to tribe, so woriking with NA folks is always interesting. When providers are culturally competent though, the outcomes tend to be better. Not to mention the fact that our service providers can often recognize cultural incompetence with regard to our child welfare workers, which in turn makes life easier for me.

The "if they can do it, anyone can do it" logic does not work with every social outcome. I know people with terminal degrees, extensive resume', and a vigorous voting record who came from impoverished environments.

heh.. NONE of my parents have terminal degrees. Some barely speak English. Others are addicts or criminals. They can get IDs. So yes, if they can do it, so can anyone. I work with the real down and out folks. Especially when I'm doing my pro bono work.

Are people saying a large segment of poor people and minorities are inept?

That seems to be what you're saying... I'm not buying that. There's just not an excuse for not being able to come up with some form of ID that I'll accept. If there's a will, there's a way. If people are responsible adults and maintain basic identification paperwork, they won't have problems. If they're irresponsible, they might miss an election or two and if they care, it's not a huge deal to get things straightened out. At least not here. If I was reading another post and saw that the state of Texas was requiring folks to physically present themselves in Austin to obtain paperwork, yes, that's a ridiculous and significant barrier and is totally unreasonable. Someone on a fixed income can't just travel from, say Amarillo to Austin on a lark.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

It's a pretty intimate level of exposure. Culture is often a big tool for me in choosing the most compatible services for my clients. For example, if my clients are Latino, I have a number of Latino-focused resources. If they're black, I tend to send them to service providers who are also black. The tribes kind of have their own thing going and YMMV from tribe to tribe, so woriking with NA folks is always interesting. When providers are culturally competent though, the outcomes tend to be better. Not to mention the fact that our service providers can often recognize cultural incompetence with regard to our child welfare workers, which in turn makes life easier for me.


heh.. NONE of my parents have terminal degrees. Some barely speak English. Others are addicts or criminals. They can get IDs. So yes, if they can do it, so can anyone. I work with the real down and out folks. Especially when I'm doing my pro bono work.

The fact that you missed my point regarding exposure outside of the legal profession is troublesome. Even still, the people who you say have IDs still do not represent the majority of their socioeconomic, racial, ethnic, and language group. Is everyone else just inept?

Originally Posted by Kevin

That seems to be what you're saying...

Only you have made this topic about ineptitude. This is not about whether people "suck" versus "don't suck." Social change never happens if groups of people (we aren't just talking about individuals or a couple of people) are led to believe all of their social outcomes are a result of sucking. This topic is about why certain groups have greater access to resources than other groups of people and what can be done so that a larger number of people can gain access. How can you (Kevin) help people in your professional career if you believe everything boils down to ineptitude versus aptitude? Individual consciousness and agency are not the only criteria for desired outcomes.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I spoke with someone earlier who was saying the VRA was not gotten ridden of completely, changes were made, so what is all the big fuss. I explained that small changes lead to big changes. We know the routine and we know the game. It happens in all aspects of life where people follow the "slow but steady wins the race" routine. Let us not act brand new.

Yeah, this was only a small part of it which set forth a formula for which districts would be subject to the VRA. Section 5 still exists, so if Congress was to come up with an alternate, more contemporary formula applying to all 50 states, they might get SCOTUS blessing.

With Republicans in the House though, good luck with that.

[Psi U MC Vito]

I was required to go to the state capital. Everybody born in my county after a certain time period had to. They couldn't trust the records in the county records.

[Kevin]

Oklahoma and FEMA have special services set up to help folks replace lost documents in our tornadoes. I would assume that's the norm with natural disasters in the U.S..

Otherwise, if folks think it's fine to go without any form of ID including a birth certificate, an emergency/lack of preparedness on their part does not create an emergency which justifies undoing all of the very reasonable safeguards for fraud.

[Missouri Ivy]

I may be misreading the opinion (rather, the analysis of the opinion) but I thought the main issue was the data that was being used to decide areas needing congressional oversight. (Section IV). From what I understood, if recent data is collected demonstrating an area (county, state, etc...) is not compliant with the VRA, oversight can be reinstated, because Section V still stands. So, while as of right now, the areas are not bound by Congressional oversight, it isn't necessarily the case it will remain that way. I could be making a botch of it though.