bankruptcy

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

I wish bankruptcy wasn't an option... too many people abuse it and don't learn their lesson.

Please cite your sources.

Most bankruptcies are medical, and people can not simply "negotiate debts away", as you seem to think. If they *DO* negotiate, it's because the creditor would rather get part of the repayment, rather than getting nothing if the debtor went into bankruptcy. If bankruptcy no longer existed, the debtor's ability to negotiate would all but disappear.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

I wish bankruptcy wasn't an option... too many people abuse it and don't learn their lesson. Even if you get a ton of medical debt for whatever reason, there are ways to talk to the hospitals and doctors to negotiate a way to get some of the balances waived, and a payment plan for the rest. Dave has described how to do this on his show many times.

So what would you suggest instead for someone who with a high school degree who gets hit with a six-figure medical bill for something totally out of their control? Debtor's prison?

[Cane94G8r97]

Originally Posted by ellebud

So, in general: attorneys who advertise may not be your best bet. the bar association is an excellent referral service (at least here).

I'm going to have to agree with you there ... 100%. In my market, I find that the attorneys who have the money to advertise on TV are the ones who don't actually do the legal work. They are like mills where the paralegal does all the work. It shocks me when I go to court and I see the attorney asking "Who is Mr Smith?" because they have never before even spoken to the client! I personally believe that if you hire a lawyer, you should get a lawyer. Sounds like your husband thinks the same way.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Kevin

So what would you suggest instead for someone who with a high school degree who gets hit with a six-figure medical bill for something totally out of their control? Debtor's prison?

Didn't Romney answer this for us? Borrow money from your parents.

[amanda6035]

Psh, please, do you feel big and bad now? "Shame on you because you have no compassion for people who might just have a case of bad luck."

The fact of the matter is, bankruptcy IS an option, so me voicing my wish that it wasn't isn't going to change anything. So I don't know why you're so offended, it's not like my wish is going to magically come true. (HPRL anyone?) So there ya go, knock yourself out walking in front of a bus and rack up medical debt for all I care. If you can't afford it, good for you, you have options to get your slate wiped clean.

Here's your cited source you asked for. This is just one example of stupidity.

BTW - I love how you people like to insinuate that I said something I didn't. I didnt say there shouldn't be help for people who legitimately need it. However - people abuse bankruptcy, and I think there should be stricter rules about who qualifies, for why, and how. The abusers rack up debt they don't intend to pay, and then play the "woe is me" card, and get it forgiven.

There's a difference in people like the dumb girl in the article I referenced, and people who end up with medical debt they had no control over.


*DBB - Well, I guess you're right. Let's keep bankrupcty around so that there is negotiating power. Oh but wait. If bankruptcy wasn't an option, how would those companies get paid? wage garnishments? Last time I checked, they can only do so much. And you can't put the person in "debtors prison" because the person wouldnt be making any money or have the ability to pay back the debt. So what do you suggest?

Medical debt is ridonkulous anyway. If they have the ability to negotiate and forgive as much as they do, then maybe they should lower the prices in the first place. It shouldn't cost $700 for an asprin while in the hospital.

[Munchkin03]

From many of your previous posts, it seems that you made financial decisions that you regret, namely in the form of taking out student loans. While some people do end up taking out far more than they should, the vast majority do not regret their loans and, like Kevin, consider it an investment in their futures.

Just because Dave Ramsey thinks student loans are a "stupid tax" doesn't mean it's true for everyone. Perhaps you took out too much, or perhaps your program wasn't appropriate for such an investment. I took out a nominal amount for graduate school and the payments are a drop in the bucket for me. Due to my income, I no longer qualify for any of the interest rate deductions. The increase in my monthly salary due to having a master's degree from one of the top architecture schools in the world is exponentially higher than my piddly monthly payments. Is that a stupid tax? Hardly!

That said, I don't think they should be discharged in bankruptcy either, unless you're incapacitated and can no longer work (but in most cases, they'd be discharged before you got to that point). Education isn't like a car or a house that can be repossessed.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

I wish bankruptcy wasn't an option... too many people abuse it and don't learn their lesson.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Please cite your sources.

Most bankruptcies are medical, and people can not simply "negotiate debts away", as you seem to think. If they *DO* negotiate, it's because the creditor would rather get part of the repayment, rather than getting nothing if the debtor went into bankruptcy. If bankruptcy no longer existed, the debtor's ability to negotiate would all but disappear.

Originally Posted by amanda6035

Psh, please, do you feel big and bad now? "Shame on you because you have no compassion for people who might just have a case of bad luck."

The fact of the matter is, bankruptcy IS an option, so me voicing my wish that it wasn't isn't going to change anything. So I don't know why you're so offended, it's not like my wish is going to magically come true. (HPRL anyone?) So there ya go, knock yourself out walking in front of a bus and rack up medical debt for all I care. If you can't afford it, good for you, you have options to get your slate wiped clean.

Here's your cited source you asked for. This is just one example of stupidity.

BTW - I love how you people like to insinuate that I said something I didn't. I didnt say there shouldn't be help for people who legitimately need it. However - people abuse bankruptcy, and I think there should be stricter rules about who qualifies, for why, and how. The abusers rack up debt they don't intend to pay, and then play the "woe is me" card, and get it forgiven.

There's a difference in people like the dumb girl in the article I referenced, and people who end up with medical debt they had no control over.


*DBB - Well, I guess you're right. Let's keep bankrupcty around so that there is negotiating power. Oh but wait. If bankruptcy wasn't an option, how would those companies get paid? wage garnishments? Last time I checked, they can only do so much. And you can't put the person in "debtors prison" because the person wouldnt be making any money or have the ability to pay back the debt. So what do you suggest?

Medical debt is ridonkulous anyway. If they have the ability to negotiate and forgive as much as they do, then maybe they should lower the prices in the first place. It shouldn't cost $700 for an asprin while in the hospital.

One person's story is hardly a source for trying to claim that most people abuse bankruptcy. And DBB isn't the one that suggested that we eliminate bankruptcy, so it's not her point to defend and find alternates for. If you're going to say it needs to be eliminated then you're the one that has the burden of suggesting alternate options.

It's great that you think medical debt is ridic. Why not just make medical care free? Wouldn't that be great??

[amanda6035]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

From many of your previous posts, it seems that you made financial decisions that you regret, namely in the form of taking out student loans. While some people do end up taking out far more than they should, the vast majority do not regret their loans and, like Kevin, consider it an investment in their futures.

Just because Dave Ramsey thinks student loans are a "stupid tax" doesn't mean it's true for everyone. Perhaps you took out too much, or perhaps your program wasn't appropriate for such an investment. I took out a nominal amount for graduate school and the payments are a drop in the bucket for me. Due to my income, I no longer qualify for any of the interest rate deductions. The increase in my monthly salary due to having a master's degree from one of the top architecture schools in the world is exponentially higher than my piddly monthly payments. Is that a stupid tax? Hardly!

That said, I don't think they should be discharged in bankruptcy either, unless you're incapacitated and can no longer work (but in most cases, they'd be discharged before you got to that point). Education isn't like a car or a house that can be repossessed.

*sigh* Really? This again? Are you still that upset that we disagree about this? Student loans are a stupid tax. They are not an investment. Investments earn you money. Student loans cost you money. You can get a college education without taking out loans. And no, taking out loans so you can learn a skill or gain knowledge to help you "get a better job" is not an investment. Going to school is an investment. Paying for school with debt is not an investment.

It's no secret that I deeply regret my student loans. But I don't have any desire to have them hang around around for 20 years by paying the bare minimum so that I don't have to be responsible for them anymore. Sorry, I have a life to live. And that means livinging extremely frugally right now so I can throw any extra money I have at them to get them out of my life. They are an inconvenience, and I'm taking full responsibility for them. My point in the previous thread is that for young students out there who are worried about their options, there are OTHER options. Debt is not the only option.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

So there ya go, knock yourself out walking in front of a bus and rack up medical debt for all I care. If you can't afford it, good for you, you have options to get your slate wiped clean.

Actually, I can afford it just fine, because I am insured through my university, and the taxpayers of Illinois pick up the bill for my healthcare. I'll tell you what, we can get rid of bankruptcy as soon as we have single-payer healthcare.

Other than that, I think AlphaFrog just about covered all the other barely-comprehensible points you made...and let me tell you, AlphaFrog and I agree so rarely that it's safe to say you are pretty out in left field on this one.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

*sigh* Really? This again? Are you still that upset that we disagree about this? Student loans are a stupid tax. They are not an investment. Investments earn you money. Student loans cost you money. You can get a college education without taking out loans. And no, taking out loans so you can learn a skill or gain knowledge to help you "get a better job" is not an investment. Going to school is an investment. Paying for school with debt is not an investment.

It's no secret that I deeply regret my student loans. But I don't have any desire to have them hang around around for 20 years by paying the bare minimum so that I don't have to be responsible for them anymore. Sorry, I have a life to live. And that means livinging extremely frugally right now so I can throw any extra money I have at them to get them out of my life. They are an inconvenience, and I'm taking full responsibility for them. My point in the previous thread is that for young students out there who are worried about their options, there are OTHER options. Debt is not the only option.

Wow...not only is what you're saying barely comprehensible, it's totally wrong. It also seems that you're making all sorts of false assumptions. I, in your words, "have a life to live," as well, and that doesn't involve calling people stupid for making an investment in their futures. For all you know, I could be paying 4X what my monthly payment is just to pay them off...and it's still just not that much. Sorry I thought a little bit more than you did before going to graduate school.

I'd recommend that you take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard before letting your fingers do the walking. While you might have a point that debt is not the only option and that students and their parents should do as much research as possible, your defensiveness, anger, and poorly worded rants don't help.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

My point in the previous thread is that for young students out there who are worried about their options, there are OTHER options. Debt is not the only option.

At least you're willing to admit now that they (student loans) are an option, and not just a tax on your own stupidity.

You seem really bitter about all this.

[AGDee]

I can honestly say that there is no way my daughter could attend college without some student loans unless she was going to go part time for 7 or 8 years. For some reason, FAFSA thinks I can afford one third of my income to pay for her college. I can't. In the 7 or 8 years that she was going part time, I would be continuing to feed her, pay for her living expenses, car, car insurance and gas. In fact, we'd have to buy another car. Even if she got a full scholarship to a community college for the first two years, my expenses would be more than I could afford. She'd be better off if I made $20K less or $20K more a year, but I seem to be in this middle place that just screws us. She wants to go college, there will be loans. On the plus side, I have every intention of paying off this year's loans for her. She will still have some big loans next year, but they will drop considerably the next year, when her brother starts college. That's the equivalent of me making $20K less a year.

I think the danger is in stating black and white absolutes. Saying that all student loans are bad or bankruptcy shouldn't be an option at all is too extreme. There are smart ways to do it and not smart ways to do it. There is a lot of gray.

[amanda6035]

I never said they weren't an option. I said people didn't "need" loans to be able to get an education. And my position hasn't changed on that.

[amanda6035]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Actually, I can afford it just fine, because I am insured through my university, and the taxpayers of Illinois pick up the bill for my healthcare. I'll tell you what, we can get rid of bankruptcy as soon as we have single-payer healthcare.

AGAIN, a wishful comment is not magically going to happen. Bankruptcy's not going anywhere, so it's okay, you don't have to panic.

What would you do without all those tax payers? Maybe you should send a thank you note.

[aggieAXO]

Originally Posted by amanda6035

I never said they weren't an option. I said people didn't "need" loans to be able to get an education. And my position hasn't changed on that.

There were 123 students in my vet school class and I can count on one hand how many paid for schooling on their own (via their parents or they had previous careers), the rest of us HAD to take out loans-there was no other way. There are not many scholarships offered and no grants. How else would I have done it?? I hated the debt and paid it off as soon as I could (even selling my house-a portion of the profit went towards the loan).

I feel lucky though-I make a good living and feel my debt was a good investment. I do feel sorry for the current students-average debt for vet school has gone up to 150,000-that will be very difficult to pay off. I would not have gone to vet. school if I had been looking at that kind of debt. There is income based repayment now which does help from what I hear. Whether that is fair to the rest of us as taxpayers is another story.