Law Degree Losing Its Luster?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

The people who are suing their law schools thought the Tier 4 regional school would still allow them to play ball with the Tier 1 kids on the national field. That's not true, and it's never been true.

Well of course not.

I think the lawsuits may have some merit in that Tier 4 schools, including mine, publish quite a bit of misinformation about their employment statistics in that to the school, you are considered employed after law school whether you are an associate in a top firm or whether you are a barrista at the Starbuck's on the first floor of the building where that other graduate works.

I still don't think the suits have much merit. The information about law school being a gamble if you don't have a plan is definitely out there. Law students tend to be pretty sophisticated people. Expecting to make $150K upon graduation from a Tier 4 school (unless nepotism is involved or you're some kind of prodigy) is just not realistic.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Of course.

There aren't too many. Kaplan operates one. I'm pretty sure they send out promotional literature to everyone who does poorly on the LSAT. Some states will even license you if you graduate from a non-ABA approved school.

My remarks about my school weren't that it is for-profit per se, but it is being run as a cash cow to subsidize other aspects of the university.

[KSUViolet06]

^^^Oh no, I get that. I was just unaware that Kaplan has a law program. I shouldn't be surprised.

I'm hi-jacking, but I don't get the allure of doing a degree with Kaplan. So many disclaimers.

For example, I'm in an M. Ed. program. Kaplan offers the SAME program with BIG GIANT ASTERISKS saying "Kaplan can't guarantee that you'll be eligible for a teaching license after completing this, as it doesn't meet the licensure requirements of any state except Iowa."

Well, what is the point of it then? Why would someone spend a bajillion dollars to not even be eligible for a license?

Are you even eligible to take the bar after you get a Kaplan degree?

[aggieAXO]

The same issue is happening in veterinary medicine. We are pumping out too many vets. More schools are opening up and many schools have increased their class sizes. There are many undergrad students that don't get into a state side school so now they are going overseas to vet school where their debt can easily reach 250,000 to 300,000 (for example Ross university which is a for profit school). Try paying 250,000$ off with a 60,000$ a year salary-and this is if you can get a job. I have tried to educate some of these pre vet students on the student doctor network message board-but they don't want to hear it. Many think they won't have any problems getting a job or that it is all rainbows and unicorns once they graduate. They are in for a big surprise. I was talking to a 4th year vet student this May and she said 60% of the 2012class did not have a job yet. My class (1997) had at least 3 job offers each by early spring. We could pick and chose where we wanted to go.

I have trried to warn them and have gotten nothing but rude responses. At this point I don't give a rat's ass if they drown in debt.

Does anyone have any opinions on the income based repayment that the government is now offering? Many of these students are saying they are just going to depend onthis when they graduate but I have a feeling this program will not last.

[Low C Sharp]

to the school, you are considered employed after law school whether you are an associate in a top firm or whether you are a barrista at the Starbuck's on the first floor of the building where that other graduate works.

Not to come to your school's defense, but external forces put that system in place. The ABA, USNews, and NALP have rules about how employment stats are reported; schools must publish them that way.

Schools that really care about transparency will ALSO publish more detailed stats about who's working outside of the legal field, part-time, etc. So I'm not saying the schools are blameless. They just didn't come up with the idea of including the Starbucks baristas as "employed" -- they were asked to do that.

Even when schools are up front about the bad job odds, students ignore the ugly stats or think they'll be in the lucky group. It's just what aggieAXO is saying about the new vets. You can tell them that 90% of the grads are starving...a whole lot of people think, "But I'll be in the 10%."

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

^^^Oh no, I get that. I was just unaware that Kaplan has a law program. I shouldn't be surprised.

I'm hi-jacking, but I don't get the allure of doing a degree with Kaplan. So many disclaimers.

For example, I'm in an M. Ed. program. Kaplan offers the SAME program with BIG GIANT ASTERISKS saying "Kaplan can't guarantee that you'll be eligible for a teaching license after completing this, as it doesn't meet the licensure requirements of any state except Iowa."

Well, what is the point of it then? Why would someone spend a bajillion dollars to not even be eligible for a license?

Are you even eligible to take the bar after you get a Kaplan degree?

Remember that cool thread about online degrees that turned into a thread about for-profit schools? Deja vu.

Interesting 2007 article that lists a few for-profit "schools of law":
http://stayviolation.typepad.com/chu...or-profit.html

(I do not necessarily agree with him but I am amused by his word usage errors that any amount of proofreading could have caught.)

Warning the world about all for-profit schools, one thread at a time. This is a list of the majority of for-profit schools and does not include every for-profit "school of law":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s_and_colleges

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by aggieAXO

The same issue is happening in veterinary medicine. We are pumping out too many vets. More schools are opening up and many schools have increased their class sizes. There are many undergrad students that don't get into a state side school so now they are going overseas to vet school where their debt can easily reach 250,000 to 300,000 (for example Ross university which is a for profit school).

I know next to nothing about med or vet school, but I see ads for overseas med school all the time when I'm on campus.

I had been wondering how reputable those programs are. Like, can you sit for the appropriate licensure exams after going there? And even if you do get a license, is anyone going to be interested in hiring you/having you as a resident when they find out where you went to school?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by aggieAXO

Does anyone have any opinions on the income based repayment that the government is now offering?

IBR is a good thing considering the limited alternatives that most people have.

[KSUViolet06]

There's a level of dissatisfaction with universities in the education field too (like law except without the lawsuits. People don't really do their research on the market and what districts need now and in the foreseeable future. So they wind up with degrees and licenses that districts aren't really interested in, especially with layoffs.

Ex: So you got a degree in Early Childhood Ed (most popular major here.) Don't pitch a fit when you can't find a job. The need in the region is not there for ECED teachers. Don't blame the university for that. Also: The same people who pitch the "no one in this region will hire me" fit are also the same people who REFUSE to relocate.

And I get that not everyone is interested in the high-need teaching fields (SPED, math, science, etc) but when you choose to get a degree in something that doesn't have a ton of need, that's what you sign on for (either not working or relocating.)

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

I know next to nothing about med or vet school, but I see ads for overseas med school all the time when I'm on campus.

I had been wondering how reputable those programs are. Like, can you sit for the appropriate licensure exams after going there? And even if you do get a license, is anyone going to be interested in hiring you/having you as a resident when they find out where you went to school?

Yes, you can go to med school in the Carribean and do a residency here. The AMA keeps a pretty strict cap on the number of seats in medical schools, to the point where some would argue there are not enough doctors being trained.

I have no idea why the ABA doesn't do the same.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

And I get that not everyone is interested in the high-need teaching fields (SPED, math, science, etc) but when you choose to get a degree in something that doesn't have a ton of need, that's what you sign on for (either not working or relocating.)

My mom went back to work in 1999 after more than a decade out, and they needed SPED teachers so she taught SPED. There was such a shortage that they were totally cool with that as long as she enrolled in night school within a few months. Teaching SPED and getting another degree at her age was not easy, but that's what was available.

BUT...once you teach SPED for a few years, if you really want, you have the seniority move to non-SPED. My mom never did (and she retires today from the Chicago Public Schools!), but a 22-year-old who wants to get a job should really consider putting in the grunt work.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I have no idea why the ABA doesn't do the same.

Money.

--that and the fact that for-profits which aren't licensed by the ABA are popping up and some states are allowing their graduates to take the Bar. This could render the ABA impotent.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

I know next to nothing about med or vet school, but I see ads for overseas med school all the time when I'm on campus.

I had been wondering how reputable those programs are. Like, can you sit for the appropriate licensure exams after going there? And even if you do get a license, is anyone going to be interested in hiring you/having you as a resident when they find out where you went to school?

Caribbean medical schools do serve an important niche. Here in NYC, there's an Urban Doctors Program that will provide scholarships to students to study at Caribbean medical schools with the understanding that they'll work at one of the underserved public hospitals in the city for a number of years after their residencies (which they'll also do here). Some people pick those schools specifically because they want to do public health and don't necessarily want/need to take on the debt of a major medical school. The vast majority of the people in Caribbean medical schools WANT to be in places like Rwanda or the South Bronx.

It's kind of like Kevin's situation--he knew he'd have a job right out, so he needed the JD--not the name on the JD. The problem lies in the people who think they'll have all of same opportunities as those who went to a more prestigious school.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

The headline is drama and hype. The story is a reflection of the economy. It's also a bit of hype, in that historically not all lawyers have made "lots" of money. Comparatively I'm not even sure you can say "most" have, depending on how one defines "lots" of money. Most lawyers make a comfortable living. There's a difference. I wonder how many grads come out of law schools expecting the high-paying jobs that most of them will not get.

Then there's the question of whether part of the problem is that there are too many lawyers. Are law schools turning out more lawyers than the population and economy can reasonably support?

I think the problem of too many lawyers actually stems from the economy as well. Being from MI and just happening to graduate college the year the state's economy took a major dump I know way too many people who furthered their education (Mostly Masters programs but a few going to law school) simply because they couldn't find work with their 4 year degree and had assumed that the economy would've recovered by the time they graduated. I assume that this phenomena is pretty much going on nation wide now.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Caribbean medical schools do serve an important niche. Here in NYC, there's an Urban Doctors Program that will provide scholarships to students to study at Caribbean medical schools with the understanding that they'll work at one of the underserved public hospitals in the city for a number of years after their residencies (which they'll also do here). Some people pick those schools specifically because they want to do public health and don't necessarily want/need to take on the debt of a major medical school. The vast majority of the people in Caribbean medical schools WANT to be in places like Rwanda or the South Bronx.

It's kind of like Kevin's situation--he knew he'd have a job right out, so he needed the JD--not the name on the JD. The problem lies in the people who think they'll have all of same opportunities as those who went to a more prestigious school.

^^^^I didn't know that. Thanks.

I think people generally fail to do their homework on the fields they're entering to know whether the caliber of school they're attending matters in the field. There are some fields where the school you go to is going to determine a lot for you in terms of where you're going to work.

Ex: Law is a field where it matters. Your expectations need to match the reality. Ex: You can't go to UAkron for law school and expect to work at a Top 100 firm.

Or Architecture. You're not going to be doing restorations on historical landmarks in DC with a Regional State University degree.

Not to pick on regionals because I attend one, but I know that my field isn't a "school matters" type (as most human services/education type fields aren't.)