Should fine dining establishments go out of their way to accomodate toddlers?

[SydneyK]

As a mom of two preschoolers, I agree with those who say kids and upscale restaurants don't mix. If for whatever reason you can't leave your child with a babysitter, then adjust your plans accordingly. You can always choose to go to a different restaurant.

I don't agree with this, though:

Originally Posted by sceniczip

I don't want them on my flights either. Kids usually aren't happy when flying but I enjoy flying and I want to continue to enjoy flying, which can't happen when some little kid is crying the whole trip or kicking my seat.

That's a bit over-the-top. There are few realistic alternatives to flying. If you and your 8 month old live in NY and Grandma lives in CA, your opportunities to visit Grandma are severely limited if you can't bring your child on an airplane.

But, back OT, I think it's a double-edge sword for the restaurants. They're catering to families because the demand is there. At the same time, they're alienating the rest of their clientele. No win situation, really.

[kddani]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

A
I don't agree with this, though:


That's a bit over-the-top. There are few realistic alternatives to flying. If you and your 8 month old live in NY and Grandma lives in CA, your opportunities to visit Grandma are severely limited if you can't bring your child on an airplane.

Agreed. And there's a huge difference between a crying baby and a 5 year old kicking the crap out of the back of your seat.

A crying baby generally can't be attributed to bad parenting, lack of control/discipline, etc. Sometimes babies just cry (or sound like they're crying - my 11 week old's version of "talking" right now sounds exactly like the beginning sounds of her crying). You can't do much to shut up a baby sometimes.

[sceniczip]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

That's a bit over-the-top. There are few realistic alternatives to flying. If you and your 8 month old live in NY and Grandma lives in CA, your opportunities to visit Grandma are severely limited if you can't bring your child on an airplane.

Maybe it's a little unrealistic to expect babies not to cry on flights but that doesn't mean I can't still be annoyed by it. I would totally book an adults-only flight if there was an option. I understand that they're not happy but neither are the people who have to listen to them. I don't blame the parents for it though, I just wish there was a way to get them to be quiet.
And it's not over-the-top to expect a kid to not kick my seat. Sorry that's just poor parenting if they don't tell their kid to stop. I do happen to enjoy flying, I like the environment. Call me crazy but I really do.

[Katmandu]

I have had several nice meals out with my husband (all too rare with our budget and schedule) ruined by misbehaving children and adults who think their antics are "cute". So in my book, leave them home with a sitter unless you are really sure they are going to behave. And you insure they are going to behave by practicing table manners at home.

I think one of the problems is that fewer and fewer families sit down at their own dining room tables to eat a meal with napkins, table settings, glassware, and a candle or two. For many of my friends, their family meals were almost always in the car, or standing up at the kitchen island with everyone warming up something and eating when ever they wanted, and/or sitting in front of the TV in the family room. You can't learn table manners and conversation skills if you only eat at a table at Christmas and Thanksgiving. Maybe it's because I had three boys, but I believe that children need a lot of social practice!

I don't buy the argument that after school activities mean you can't have family meals. But that's one of my priorities, so I'm not unbiased on that topic!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by sceniczip

And it's not over-the-top to expect a kid to not kick my seat.

No, that's not over the top at all.

I do happen to enjoy flying, I like the environment. Call me crazy but I really do.

I won't call you crazy; I'll just be happy for you next time I'm enduring a flight.

[groovypq]

Originally Posted by sceniczip

Maybe it's a little unrealistic to expect babies not to cry on flights but that doesn't mean I can't still be annoyed by it. I would totally book an adults-only flight if there was an option. I understand that they're not happy but neither are the people who have to listen to them. I don't blame the parents for it though, I just wish there was a way to get them to be quiet.
And it's not over-the-top to expect a kid to not kick my seat. Sorry that's just poor parenting if they don't tell their kid to stop. I do happen to enjoy flying, I like the environment. Call me crazy but I really do.

This. And, it's not over-the-top to expect the parents AND kids to stay in their seats and not hop and bop about all the time. And it's also not over-the-top to expect non-babies to be quiet. Your three-year-old can be told NOT to scream at the top of his/her lungs and comprehend that.

I really only have problems when I go to Florida, and I think it's because the kids are all hopped up on Disney and sugar. Seriously, someone should consider adult-only flights to Florida airports. I bet it would go over.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

That's a bit over-the-top. There are few realistic alternatives to flying. If you and your 8 month old live in NY and Grandma lives in CA, your opportunities to visit Grandma are severely limited if you can't bring your child on an airplane.

It's more than a bit over the top.

Besides, I can't imagine how anyone truly enjoys flying these days. I enjoy being other places and flying is the means to get there, but there's nothing enjoyable about flying.

[ree-Xi]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

It's more than a bit over the top.

Besides, I can't imagine how anyone truly enjoys flying these days. I enjoy being other places and flying is the means to get there, but there's nothing enjoyable about flying.

My mom says that all the time - that she loves flying. Then again, she's only flown for pleasure, and not on a crappy prop plane with less than 20 seats, or on a red-eye home from the west to the east coast because your boss was too cheap to flip for a hotel room. That flight was awful - we had flown one of the crappy newer airlines and get this - they couldn't land in Boston because of fog - their pilots didn't have experience landing in fog (all other airlines were landing and taking off). I woke up around 8am as we were circling above Ohio, and asked the chick next to me what was up. She said that Logan had sent us to circle Ohio an hour and a half earlier.

We used to fly a lot to see family, but these days, it's so much effort. It wouldn't kill the relatives to come see us one of these days, but I digress.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by ree-Xi

My mom says that all the time - that she loves flying. Then again, she's only flown for pleasure, and not on a crappy prop plane with less than 20 seats, or on a red-eye home from the west to the east coast because your boss was too cheap to flip for a hotel room.

EXACTLY! My mother flies twice a year, and it's always between her house in Florida and a relative's home or a hotel. I've been flying 4-5 times a year since college, and I've had to stay in airports all day because of snowstorms, lost connections and thus had to stay in hotel rooms, and all that nonsense.

The last time I really "enjoyed" flying, I was doing it first class because of frequent flyer status.

[carnation]

I am appalled by parents who can't or won't control their kids in any restaurant, nice or "kid-friendly". When mine were younger, we didn't eat out much (too many of them, not enough money) but we did train them to sit in their seats and not raise their voices. Many times, people came up to compliment us on their behavior--yet they were only doing what they should have. We often recall one trip to Epcot in which other diners kept coming to our table and thanking us and we were astonished; what kinds of awful kids were these people used to?

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by ZTAngel

I was at Cheesecake Factory a few months ago with a friend. The hostess directed us to our table which happened to be next to a family with three toddlers were running wild around the restaurant. I asked the hostess to find us a different table. She gave me this look that screamed "CHILD HATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I'm certainly not and would like some of my own one day. I just don't want to be annoyed throughout my meal whether it's at the Cheesecake Factory or Bacchanalia (Atlanta fine dining restaurant).

One of the worst experiences I had was at Chili's which, of course, is a family friendly restaurant. That still doesn't give kids a free pass to act up. There were two kids ages 3 and 5 in the booth behind us with mom and grandma. The kids had been throwing stuff and screaming the whole meal. While the older child threw a massive temper-tantrum on the ground (complete with kicking the floor and booth), the younger child crawled up the booth and began dangling over to our side. I yelped when this kid's face ended up right in mine because it scared the living crap out of me. Grandma said calmly, "No-no, Jacob. We don't do that." My grandparents or parents would've dragged me to the car and whooped my butt!! I asked the hostess if we could be moved and both she and the kids' family looked at me like I was some sort of monster for not finding the kids to be cute!

This is what I hate more than anything. If you want to bring your children to more family-friendly restaurants, that's fine. However, you still need to control them!

I used to work in a local bar/restaurant in Erie, PA. During the day, especially on weekends, people would bring their younger children in for a meal. For the most part, none of them had acted up to a great extent... except on Sundays... during football season... on the days when the only place you could catch a Steelers game was out at a restaurant or bar, because the game was "blacked out".

The restaurant would be PACKED, and trying to maneuver around tables and people was next to impossible... especially while trying to carry dishes to and from the kitchen. And there were ALWAYS those parents who let their kids run around like crazy.

And my favorite line from parents, after their kid runs into me and starts crying: "See, I told you that would happen if you acted like that." Uh.. that's why you grab them and say, "Cut it out or we're leaving!" BEFORE anything like that happens.

Originally Posted by ree-Xi

My mom says that all the time - that she loves flying. Then again, she's only flown for pleasure, and not on a crappy prop plane with less than 20 seats, or on a red-eye home from the west to the east coast because your boss was too cheap to flip for a hotel room. That flight was awful - we had flown one of the crappy newer airlines and get this - they couldn't land in Boston because of fog - their pilots didn't have experience landing in fog (all other airlines were landing and taking off). I woke up around 8am as we were circling above Ohio, and asked the chick next to me what was up. She said that Logan had sent us to circle Ohio an hour and a half earlier.

First of all, I love flying and I HAVE been on those crappy flights... And I've also been on those planes with less than 20 seats (because when flying out of Erie, you really don't have a choice). You get used to the crazy flying patterns and being able to see the runway while landing because there's no door between you and the cockpit

And I have to ask... that awful flight with the fog... when was that? Because when I was in college, I was flying home for spring break and I was heading into Manchester, NH from Detriot. The pilot gave us updates every so often, and started talking about it being foggy. Later we were told we were circling the Manchester airport waiting for the ok to land. Then later we were told that we were unable to land, that we couldn't be diverted to Logan because too many flights were already landing there (and they were having trouble with fog, too), and that we'd have to fly back to Detriot.

I spent the night in the airport, slept on the floor (for maybe an hour) and was sick all week.

But I still like flying! ... I just don't like when things go wrong. Obviously.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Willy Wonka

Fine dining should be for couples or adult dudes or chicks who happen to be friends. Leave the kids at home with the baby sitter. No one at a fine dining restaurant wants to hear crying kids. I've got a 4 week old son, and I wouldn't want him at an establishent like that. No, they shouldn't have to accommodate.

Huh? Fine dining should be limited to couples and "adult dudes or chicks who happen to be friends"? So, a family of adults (meaning, the parents and their adult children, along with their spouses) shouldn't be able to go out to a nice restaurant?

[agzg]

I think the problem lies with the parents. They should be practicing how to eat out, AT HOME, with their kids. How to order. How to behave. How to ask for extra something-or-other, POLITELY. But, the vast majority of families that I see in restaurants (and yes, some of these include highly-zagat rated restaurants here in Chicgao), DON'T do that.

Some kids can handle it, others can't, but that has much to do with the age of the child and how much practice they've had at home. Unfortunately, we can't count on the majority of these families to be well-prepared.

And if I see ONE MORE portable DVD player pulled out in a mid-level to fine dining establishment, I'm seriously going to lose my shit. If I wanted to eat in front of the TV I'd have stayed at home.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by agzg

I think the problem lies with the parents. They should be practicing how to eat out, AT HOME, with their kids. How to order. How to behave. How to ask for extra something-or-other, POLITELY. But, the vast majority of families that I see in restaurants (and yes, some of these include highly-zagat rated restaurants here in Chicgao), DON'T do that.

Agree.

I think it's fine to bring babies, toddlers and children to fine dining restaurants if they are quiet and well-mannered. My family took my brother and I with them to fine restaurants when we were very little because we were taught that going out to a restaurant - any restaurant - was a big deal. They taught us table manners at home and expected us to behave nicely at every meal. When it came to restaurants, they started small - McDonald's, IHOP, Red Robin - and gradually moved us up to "adult" restaurants they enjoyed. We always dressed up, because going out to eat was "special." And if we acted up, we got one (quiet) warning that we would have to leave if we didn't stop. The one time I threw a fit about no grilled cheese sandwich on the menu, WE ALL LEFT AND WENT HOME. I never acted up in a restaurant again.

Far too many ADULTS, let alone children, in this country don't know how to handle themselves in a nice, adult setting. They go to a French restaurant and then won't try anything "foreign" on the menu, they talk on their cell phone at the table, they annoy other diners by laughing loudly and drunkingly with their group of friends, they go to the theatre when they've got a terrible cough, etc. They likely were never taught how to behave in a grown-up setting, and so I'm in favor of teaching children when they are just babes. As long as one can be truthful with him/herself with regard to what the child is ready for, and is willing to remove the child from the situation when it becomes inappropriate.

[GMUBunny]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

And if we acted up, we got one (quiet) warning that we would have to leave if we didn't stop. The one time I threw a fit about no grilled cheese sandwich on the menu, WE ALL LEFT AND WENT HOME. I never acted up in a restaurant again.

We got "Do you need to go to the ladies' room?" That meant something less-than-pleasant was on the way, and we straightened up immediately. People couldn't believe that my parents would bring their 6-year-old into a French restaurant. At the end of the night though, they almost always complimented my parents on how well-behaved we were.