Prop 8 Nov. 15 Protest

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

If gays feel that they are being maligned for what ever reason, then I don't think they should just base their argument on one group.

Since you seem to keep refusing read the memo, I'll say it one more time. They aren't.

And to be clear, they're not basing any arguments on any "groups." They are comparing what they see as current injustices and discriminations to past injustices and discriminations.

So, instead of just showing a White only / Black only water fountain, why not depict Jews being rounded up a forced to live in one area, and the same for American Indians.

Because the separate-but-equal accomodations reference (made by a straight poster) is much more analogous to the issue at hand than is forcing people to live in ghettos or reservations.

[OtterXO]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Good. Now you know how I feel when people try to make comparisons of gay rights with Black American struggle for civil rights - there is no comparison.

But, if the gay rights issue wants to align themselves with other people who have been persecuted, then why not the Jews too? Why not American Indians? Why not the Japanese in the US during WWII?

If gays feel that they are being maligned for what ever reason, then I don't think they should just base their argument on one group. There are plenty other groups out there too.

So, instead of just showing a White only / Black only water fountain, why not depict Jews being rounded up a forced to live in one area, and the same for American Indians.

This is just driving me nuts reading some of these posts. The gay community and the people in this thread are not "aligning" themselves with anyone. We were having a discussion comparing past situations where one group was discriminated against to the current situation regarding gay marriage. No one is saying that the gay marriage issue is more horrible or less horrible than any past injustice to ANY group of people. You can't jump in and say "well it's not as bad as _____ so don't compare the two." Comparing doesn't mean equalizing the situations, it's about having a discussion about mistakes in history and learning what we can from them. But then again, this has been said NUMEROUS times in the past several pages of this thread but none of it seemed to make an impact.

[sigmadiva]

Well then maybe KSigRC should have selected a different / "better" image than he did to make his point.

[OtterXO]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Well then maybe KSigRC should have selected a different / "better" image than he did to make his point.

But that's just the point, he didn't have to select a "better" image. He used it as an example of what he thinks the logic is behind the civil union vs. marriage debate. It's the same logic, NOT the same issue.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Well then maybe KSigRC should have selected a different / "better" image than he did to make his point.

You're seriously ignoring every subsequent post?

Tell you what - you come up with a substantive rejoinder to anything I've posted (instead of simply quoting "agree to disagree"), complete with an analysis of how the following analogy is suspect:

The term "civil union" : the status of "married" :: the concept of "separate" : the reality of "equal"

. . . and I'll reconsider. Remember - the argument has nothing to do with scale, only with logic and the lessons we all should have learned from mistreatment of blacks for centuries.

Again, this isn't about "worse" - this is about human rights. You'd think those who consider themselves the "worst" off would be interested in helping others who are suffering, but apparently my ideas of empathy are awkwardly wrong. I guess I learned something today.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Good. Now you know how I feel when people try to make comparisons of gay rights with Black American struggle for civil rights - there is no comparison.

But there is a comparison, a DIRECT comparison- they both fought/are fighting for a basic human RIGHT.

[agzg]

I think you're missing my point, which was at least they're drawing on an AMERICAN experience.

What help would it be to compare themselves to European Jews, when we are not European? Furthermore, IT WAS NOT JUST THE JEWISH POPULATION THAT WAS AFFECTED BY THE HOLOCAUST.

I'll give it to ya, the African American experience in the United States has been bad, very bad. Yes, it was worse than homosexuals have been treated.

But when fighting an American fight, doesn't it stand to reason to draw from the American experience? I'm not black, nor am I gay, but the experiences of both of these groups have become part of the general American conscience, as well, myself included.

The Holocaust? Sad, sad occurrence. I'm sure people that were distant distant relatives were affected. But it doesn't affect my daily conscience.

[RaggedyAnn]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

The Holocaust? Sad, sad occurrence. I'm sure people that were distant distant relatives were affected. But it doesn't affect my daily conscience.

Hijack/ Not really distant. My grandmother was in a German labor camp in the war. My mother was affected in how she was raised and that affected how she raised me. /end Hijack

Back on topic-it has been less than 30 years that the first gay couple went to prom-or were allowed to go to prom because they won a court case.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by RaggedyAnn

Hijack/ Not really distant. My grandmother was in a German labor camp in the war. My mother was affected in how she was raised and that affected how she raised me. /end Hijack

I meant distant relatives of mine, in the fact that the holocaust has not become part of my conscience as an American, versus the civil rights movement, which has.

[SWTXBelle]

http://www.slate.com/id/2204661/

I feel like I'm on "Coffee Talk". Discuss.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by XOMichelle

I feel like this is an argument that just doesn't make a lot of sense when you consider the institution in the abstract. It also proves to an extent that a lot of this debate is centered in prejudice.

To you. To others, it's your argument that doesn't make sense. And for some, it may be prejudice. For others, it is deeply held belief that is not based on prejudice.

[idealistic soapbox] We get nowhere by dismissing the sincerely held beliefs or opinions of others as not making sense, nor do we get anywhere by imputing motives like prejudice (or homophobia) to them unless it clearly is prejudice at play. All that does is short-circuit the possibility (however small that possibility might be) of actually having a productive discussion.

A friend once said to me, quite sincerely, that she just didn't see how anyone could be against the marriage of gays. She was quite taken aback when I answered "And that's part of the problem."

Seriously, whatever side of the issue we're on, it's only when we can try to respectfully understand what those on the other side believe and why they believe it that we can ever hope to engage in productive dialogue and actually get anywhere. Otherwise, we're just yelling at each other. [/soapbox]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Well then maybe KSigRC should have selected a different / "better" image than he did to make his point.

He only selected an image that reflected the legal basis upon which the Connecticut and California courts have said civil unions are not the equivalent of marriage and that it was a violation of state equal protection guarantees to deny gay people the right to marry.

[agzg]

Remember when that girl and her girlfriend were thrown out of a baseball game for "making out inappropriately?"

Granted, the girl had been on Shot at Love so there's a possibility for some lewdness... but I've never heard of a heterosexual couple being thrown out of a sporting event for making out.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Granted, the girl had been on Shot at Love so there's a possibility for some lewdness... but I've never heard of a heterosexual couple being thrown out of a sporting event for making out.

Without knowing the full context, hetero couples have been admonished for doing things that shock others' sensibilities. A lot of us don't want to see heteros tonguing(?) each other down.

I agree with your general point, though. I'm also glad to see this turn to being about heterosexual (majority) and homosexual (minority) rather than being a "whose oppression is it, anyway" gameshow.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Without knowing the full context, hetero couples have been admonished for doing things that shock others' sensibitilies. A lot of us don't want to see heteros tonguing(?) each other down.

I agree with your general point, though. I'm also glad to see this turn to being about heterosexual (majority) and homosexual (minority) rather than being a "whose oppression is it, anyway" gameshow.

There's a possibility it has happened, but a hetero couple being thrown out wouldn't make national news. I've never seen people (hetero or homo) making out at a baseball game, anyway, though. And I know I would, because I hate baseball, so there's no way I'm not using my binoculars to people watch.

"No! Let's go to a baseball game!"
"But I hate baseball."
"Come on, let's go, the Pirates are playing the _______!"
"But I hate baseball."
"Let's go!"
"But I'll get a sun burn!"
"I'll give you sunscreen, let's go!"
"You're buying me a hot dog."

Stupid baseball nut friends.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

There's a possibility it has happened, but a hetero couple being thrown out wouldn't make national news.

That depends. I'm sure it made national news for reasons beyond sexual orientation.

And I'm glad I missed the national news blurb on this one.