ITT We Discuss Theology

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Order of the Mass.

http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/order-of-mass.pdf

Thank you, thank you!

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

We may be operating with different definitions of guilt. I think you are leaning more towards a definition for what I would label shame, which is a horse of a different colour. Guilt in and of itself is not a good thing, but as a motivating force - something which causes you to examine your actions - it is. Guilt implies a knowledge of right and wrong. Although I realize it is now quite the fashion to be a moral relativist, I'd argue that losing the perspective of right/wrong that leads to the kind of guilt I'm discussing has resulted in far more evil than the occasional misplaced guilt.

I think this is a good estimation of guilt moving towards something positive. I had a brilliant thought related to this at Mass this evening, but I cannot remember it for the life of me.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Still true, although I believe Benedict has made it easier for parishes to get permission to have Latin Masses, particularly on a regular basis. I'm not sure if the petition still goes to the Vatican or if the bishops can now give permission. But your understanding's accurate.

Actually according to Redemptionis Sacramentum (link),

[112.] Mass is celebrated either in Latin or in another language, provided that liturgical texts are used which have been approved according to the norm of law. Except in the case of celebrations of the Mass that are scheduled by the ecclesiastical authorities to take place in the language of the people, Priests are always and everywhere permitted to celebrate Mass in Latin.

In other words, unless the big wigs say there is supposed to be a Mass in the vernacular, any Mass can be celebrated in Latin. Many very conservative parishes incorporate a Latin Mass into their weekly schedule. Additionally neither the Second Vatican Council, nor the subsequent revisions to the Roman Missal abolished Latin as the liturgical language of the Roman Rite. This is why all vernacular texts of the Mass are translated from the Roman Missal (in Latin). I'm not sure if this is a change made after aephialum was in Vienna though...

ETA: Redemtionis Sacramentum is from 2004, so it may be a recent change, or this may have been in place already and not part of the revisions made.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

Thank you, thank you!



I think this is a good estimation of guilt moving towards something positive. I had a brilliant thought related to this at Mass this evening, but I cannot remember it for the life of me.



Actually according to Redemptionis Sacramentum (link),

In other words, unless the big wigs say there is supposed to be a Mass in the vernacular, any Mass can be celebrated in Latin. Many very conservative parishes incorporate a Latin Mass into their weekly schedule. Additionally neither the Second Vatican Council, nor the subsequent revisions to the Roman Missal abolished Latin as the liturgical language of the Roman Rite. This is why all vernacular texts of the Mass are translated from the Roman Missal (in Latin). I'm not sure if this is a change made after aephialum was in Vienna though...

ETA: Redemtionis Sacramentum is from 2004, so it may be a recent change, or this may have been in place already and not part of the revisions made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tridentine_Mass
I think I was thinking of the Tridentine Mass, which is typically called the Latin Mass. Permission is now sought from the parish priests rather than the bishops and Benedict gave a LOT more leeway for that. It uses the 1962 missal. If churches wish to have Mass in Latin from the current Novus Ordo missal, no permission is needed.

And then there are the churches who think Vatican II was something crazy the kids did in the sixties and use a previous missal. They tend to be in schism or in a weird quasi-schismatic state IIRC.

[Gusteau]

Gotcha, it's a very understandable misconception.

Latin Mass does not always equal Tridentine Mass, but I would be willing to bet that most of the parishes interested having a Latin Mass would be using the Tridentine Mass because it's pre-Vatican II.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

Gotcha, it's a very understandable misconception.

Latin Mass does not always equal Tridentine Mass, but I would be willing to bet that most of the parishes interested having a Latin Mass would be using the Tridentine Mass because it's pre-Vatican II.

Right. Or at least historically that's true. I don't know what missal's being used for the recent resurgence in Latin masses.

[Psi U MC Vito]

It's funny I think of Tridentine Mass as High Mass lol. Interesting enough I just came from a Roman Mass and it was done mostly in English. However the Kyrie was in the traditional Greek and both the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy God...) and the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) were in Latin. And I think that the liturgical language should be either Greek or the vernacular. I understand that Latin has great meaning to the Latin Rite, but I see no reason why Roman Catholics in say the USA should be celebrating Mass based on Latin. Greek at least is the language of scripture. (yes I know that the Tanakh?, correct if wrong aephi, is written in Hebrew and Aramaic, but the Septuagint which was used by the Early Church and even Jews of the time was in Greek) Ideally honestly I would love to see the RC church go the way of the Anglican Communion and Eastern Orthodox, having many provinces (Anglican term) which acknowledge one person as Primus. But I doubt that will happen at all, much less in my time.

[Drolefille]

^^ Pretty common to see the Greek and Latin during Lent in particular.

And you'd have better luck converting to Eastern Orthodox or Anglican than expecting the RCC to stop recognizing Rome.

[Psi U MC Vito]

I am an Anglican lol. And I never said they had to stop recognizing Rome. Just saying that the Latin Rite should be more like the Eastern Catholics.

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

I'm not sure if this is a change made after aephialum was in Vienna though...

ETA: Redemtionis Sacramentum is from 2004, so it may be a recent change, or this may have been in place already and not part of the revisions made.

If the change occurred in 2004, then, yes, it was well after I had the opportunity to celebrate Mass in Latin as a teenager in Vienna, and also well after I converted to Judaism. Let's just say that I've celebrated my 29th birthday more than once.

I have to say that the Latin Mass was an unusual and inspiring religious experience for me, as well as an educational experience, as I was studying Latin in high school as a "dead language" and here it was being used as a living language in the 20th century. However, as I've said before, it was not the faith that was in my heart - that is Judaism.

There is an old joke: "Latin is a language, as dead as dead can be. First it killed the Romans... now it's killing me."

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

I am an Anglican lol. And I never said they had to stop recognizing Rome. Just saying that the Latin Rite should be more like the Eastern Catholics.

Considering the lack of recognition for Rome is a HUGE part of why the two are schismed from each other, it doesn't make a lot of sense. It's a bit like saying you wish the Anglicans would recognize the Pope. IDGI.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Considering the lack of recognition for Rome is a HUGE part of why the two are schismed from each other, it doesn't make a lot of sense. It's a bit like saying you wish the Anglicans would recognize the Pope. IDGI.

Eastern Catholics, who do recognize the Pope, not the Eastern Orthodox which you are thinking about. And there actually are quite a few Anglo-Papists though most of those are probably going to join the new ordinates.

[AGDee]

Every Roman Catholic church I've attended did the Kyrie in traditional Greek during Lent.

There is one church in Detroit that does their high noon mass in Latin every week. It is always packed. I have a cousin who got married in that church (high Italian population attends that church) and had her wedding mass in Latin. I think it's good to have options

[SWTXBelle]

The good news - I can get you a Book of Divine Worship!
The bad news - they now cost $25!

If you are interested, pm me!

[Psi U MC Vito]

That's not too bad actually. My copy of A New Zealand Prayer Book cost more then that and it was used. Check your PMs. And MC, you in on this?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Eastern Catholics, who do recognize the Pope, not the Eastern Orthodox which you are thinking about. And there actually are quite a few Anglo-Papists though most of those are probably going to join the new ordinates.

Too many terms are used for more than one thing. Anyway it'd be such a huge culture shift, I maintain you'd have better luck getting the overall Anglican church to recognize Rome.

I'm aware that some exist, that wasn't what I was saying.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

That's not too bad actually. My copy of A New Zealand Prayer Book cost more then that and it was used. Check your PMs. And MC, you in on this?

I'm examining my discretionary liturgical fund, especially since I have it in pdf. But I do like hard copies.