Feds to file lawsuit over Arizona immigration law

[starang21]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

While that is true it doesn't answer the question of what we are to do with them. Amnesty is an option that would cut down on the ancillary crimes committed by illegals such as driving without a license and ID theft/fraud, not to mention they wouldn't be illegals anymore. Easy money.

amnesty is the worst idea that one can have. it's a slap in the face of all the naturalized citizens who obtained citizenship properly.

[Drolefille]

Just for reference: http://lafinjack.net/images/random/immigration.jpg

I'm not posting it because it's huge.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by starang21

amnesty is the worst idea that one can have. it's a slap in the face of all the naturalized citizens who obtained citizenship properly.

I'm not an advocate for amnesty at all, in fact I'm against it but it is an option. The way I see it is like this, we had an amnesty back in 1986 and yet today we have anywhere between 12-18 million illegals in the country. What exactly did amnesty do other than encourage further illegal immigration?

Also, some of the old timers I know who worked for INS during the amnesty said it was a nightmare and didn't do squat to fix the immigration system.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by starang21

i think the argument that illegals are committing all of these violent crimes is sensationalism at best.

but they're still illegal. so they're breaking the law by their mere presence.

Yeah, and that reasoning works as well as the reasoning that every person with a car should be arrested for daily breaking the law as they speed to work. Everyone breaks the law. That's illegal. Think of another argument.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Yeah, and that reasoning works as well as the reasoning that every person with a car should be arrested for daily breaking the law as they speed to work. Everyone breaks the law. That's illegal. Think of another argument.

Speeding isn't normally an offense that warrants an arrest, it's just a civil infraction. Why do people try to justify breaking immigration laws by acting as if it's no big deal or it's a stupid concept to begin with, so why follow it?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Yeah, and that reasoning works as well as the reasoning that every person with a car should be arrested for daily breaking the law as they speed to work. Everyone breaks the law. That's illegal. Think of another argument.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Speeding isn't normally an offense that warrants an arrest, it's just a civil infraction. Why do people try to justify breaking immigration laws by acting as if it's no big deal or it's a stupid concept to begin with, so why follow it?

But breaking a law multiple times is an offense that can get you arrested. There is a difference between acting as if breaking an immigration law is not a big deal and the end of the world. I agree that there is a problem with illegal immigration, but vilifying these people is not the solution. Going on and on and on about how they broke the law is dumb, IMHO.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

But breaking a law multiple times is an offense that can get you arrested. There is a difference between acting as if breaking an immigration law is not a big deal and the end of the world. I agree that there is a problem with illegal immigration, but vilifying these people is not the solution. Going on and on and on about how they broke the law is dumb, IMHO.

I think it's more than that. If I'm not mistaken, "illegal" immigration is a civil offense and doesn't become criminal until a person is deported and then returns again without documentation. Like I said, I could be wrong, so I'd appreciate confirmation from someone who knows.

Anyway, speeding can be a criminal offense. So, if illegal immigration is only civil, speeding is worse.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I think it's more than that. If I'm not mistaken, "illegal" immigration is a civil offense and doesn't become criminal until a person is deported and then returns again without documentation. Like I said, I could be wrong, so I'd appreciate confirmation from someone who knows.

Anyway, speeding can be a criminal offense. So, if illegal immigration is only civil, speeding is worse.

That's a good point. Where's MysticCat?
BTW, being illegally in the country has never killed anyone, but speeding has sure resulted in lots of deaths. That also makes speeding worse. :P

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Speeding isn't normally an offense that warrants an arrest, it's just a civil infraction. Why do people try to justify breaking immigration laws by acting as if it's no big deal or it's a stupid concept to begin with, so why follow it?

For reasons both obvious and not, undocumented entry into the US doesn't warrant an arrest either (deportation instead).

The main issue with immigration over the Mexican border is that there's no real incentive for most people to cross legally. Crossing with a coyote is expensive, dangerous, and generally just a shitty experience - but it's still apparently preferable to attempting to enter the country legally. Unless that changes, no fence or semi-racist Minutemen patrol will stem the tide of illegals.

Also, as an aside, the problem with connecting crime statistics to immigration is that there's been a drop in crime overall, and particularly violent crime, over the last two decades or so, and the reasons are really poorly understood (Levitt connected it to Roe v. Wade and abortions among the poor, for example - so the reasons are likely much broader than any one immigration issue). Any comparison has to account for this general drop first. Second, crimes among illegals (for instance, theft or rape) will likely go underreported, and there is no way to know how many unsolved crimes can be tied to a group of people adept at changing names/information/location - it's a minor point when compared with point 1, but there's a good chance it's significant. That's without getting into the fact that there's really no proof that undocumented immigrants commit crimes at a higher rate than non-immigrants once you account for socioeconomic factors.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

If I'm not mistaken, "illegal" immigration is a civil offense and doesn't become criminal until a person is deported and then returns again without documentation. Like I said, I could be wrong, so I'd appreciate confirmation from someone who knows.

Inadmissibility/Deportation charges under section 212 and 237 of the INA are administrative but can lead to criminal charges if the alien is deemed to be a criminal alien, i.e. making false claims, smuggling, etc. Illegal entry following a deportation order is a criminal offense. Immigration law is pretty complex and murky, to really get into it would take a whole thread.

BTW, I'd much rather deal with a speeding ticket than served with a NTA for an immigration hearing. Not fun at all.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Yeah, and that reasoning works as well as the reasoning that every person with a car should be arrested for daily breaking the law as they speed to work. Everyone breaks the law. That's illegal. Think of another argument.

people are pulled over. and given speeding tickets. and just because many folks aren't, that doesn't mean that illegals should be given amnesty. so your comparison is poor.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

But breaking a law multiple times is an offense that can get you arrested. There is a difference between acting as if breaking an immigration law is not a big deal and the end of the world. I agree that there is a problem with illegal immigration, but vilifying these people is not the solution. Going on and on and on about how they broke the law is dumb, IMHO.

no, that's stating a fact. illegal immigration isn't contributing to the overall wellness of this country like many seem to believe. there's 330 million americans, and 12 million illegals. it's a drop in the bucket overall. but they don't deserve amnesty.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by starang21

people are pulled over. and given speeding tickets. and just because many folks aren't, that doesn't mean that illegals should be given amnesty. so your comparison is poor.

Originally Posted by starang21

no, that's stating a fact. illegal immigration isn't contributing to the overall wellness of this country like many seem to believe. there's 330 million americans, and 12 million illegals. it's a drop in the bucket overall. but they don't deserve amnesty.

Uh huh, and where exactly did you see me say that we should offer them amnesty? Good try. Yes, people are pulled over and given speeding tickets. People are also caught and sent back to their countries of origin. The difference is that we don't run around screaming that the speeders are CRIMINALS. Do you see the point I was making now? If you don't, you are trying really hard not to.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Uh huh, and where exactly did you see me say that we should offer them amnesty? Good try. Yes, people are pulled over and given speeding tickets. People are also caught and sent back to their countries of origin. The difference is that we don't run around screaming that the speeders are CRIMINALS. Do you see the point I was making now? If you don't, you are trying really hard not to.

that's the converation me and pika2001 were having when you chimed in. who cares if we don't run screaming around that speeders are criminals? people make an issue on what they want to make an issue about. just because folks don't make an issue about speeders, doesnt' mean they can't make an issue about illegal immigration. if you want, you can start up a thread on speeders. this one is about illegal immigration.