Alabama recruitment fall-out

[Low D Flat]

The weaker recruiting chapters I have worked with tend to have more diverse memberships

That's been my experience, too. It seems to be true even on campuses where most chapters COB. My theory is that, as noted upthread, "top-tier" NPC chapters sometimes have more of a cookie-cutter skinny white look (sometimes also blonde). The weaker recruiting chapters are more likely to be diverse in terms of appearance and body type, even if all the members are white. If I'm a nonwhite woman, even if I'm skinny and Hollywood pretty, I might gravitate toward the WRC where there's more than one OK way to look, and it doesn't seem like fitting a visual mold is key to belonging.

I agree that there are idiots who "don't see race," but not on this thread, so far.

[lake]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

It seems to be true even on campuses where most chapters COB. My theory is that, as noted upthread, "top-tier" NPC chapters sometimes have more of a cookie-cutter skinny white look (sometimes also blonde). The weaker recruiting chapters are more likely to be diverse in terms of appearance and body type, even if all the members are white.

I wonder how this would play into the (incorrect?) assertion that some chapters on some campuses already have their bid list decided months before formal recruitment. I've seen this talked about sometimes. I have no idea if this is true. If it is true, it may at least explain some of the issue. I don't know.

I would be interested in reading others' thoughts on this; especially those who are familiar with recruitment at Alabama or in the South, since recruitment seems to be a bigger deal in some areas of the South.

[KSUViolet06]

Went to a school in NE OH. Every chapter on campus (largest to smallest) had Black women in them. Still true today.

Always valued the fact that race-related convos were not taboo within my chapter. Continues to be true for me even post-graduation.

Every time this topic comes around, I'm reminded of how much of a great choice I made in not attending LSU.

I was interested in NPC recruitment circa senior year in HS and knew I'd rush at whatever school I attended.

I ended up not pursuing LSU for other reasons (larger scholarship offered by Kent), but in retrospect, it was probably for the best. I would have been in for a very rude recruitment awakening and a pretty sucky first few weeks of school (because I would've been cut the first day.)

[AnchorAlumna]

Originally Posted by lake

I wonder how this would play into the (incorrect?) assertion that some chapters on some campuses already have their bid list decided months before formal recruitment. I've seen this talked about sometimes. I have no idea if this is true.

It is NOT true that some groups already know their NM class. I don't care how big and powerful they are. Even the top 5 or 6 at Alabama don't. After all, they're competing for the same girls, and not every group gets exactly who they want.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

That's been my experience, too. It seems to be true even on campuses where most chapters COB. My theory is that, as noted upthread, "top-tier" NPC chapters sometimes have more of a cookie-cutter skinny white look (sometimes also blonde). The weaker recruiting chapters are more likely to be diverse in terms of appearance and body type, even if all the members are white. If I'm a nonwhite woman, even if I'm skinny and Hollywood pretty, I might gravitate toward the WRC where there's more than one OK way to look, and it doesn't seem like fitting a visual mold is key to belonging.

You have never been privy to an NPC membership selection, and I consider your speculation to be way off-base.

[LAblondeGPhi]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

One point I have seen raised in this thread is that removing the possibility of exclusion based on race is not enough to integrate chapters (such as Alabama, for instance) - that more needs to be done to recruit AA members. This is a valid point considering the preparation necessary to participate in a recruitment of this nature.

I looked at the University of Maryland AOII facebook, and did not see AA members (and none among those in white dresses - are these new initiates?).

The Arizona State University Panhellenic Recruitment Guide doesn't reflect NPC chapter membership of AA women either:

http://asupan.com/wp-content/uploads...oklet20121.pdf

Just using those examples as you mentioned these states.

So I guess my question is -- what threshold of AA membership is considered "fully integrated" and sufficient to claim that a chapter is racially diverse?

Do these chapters actively recruit AA women? What have the chapters you advised done to address recruitment of potential members from diverse racial and socio-economic backgrounds?

Wow. Ok. First - look at the student demographics at ASU - it's 65% + white, and an additional 8% is "unknown", and 7% is "International", so those numbers could be even higher. The student population is only 3% African American. You forget that in the southwest and west coast, demographics represent large Asian and Hispanic populations, not African American populations. (SOURCE)

Second - the point being made was that PNMs are not being turned away due to blatant race issues, although I concede that there may be some soft discrimination - we all have biases in favor of people who are similar to ourselves.

The point is that at many schools, minority women of all stripes and shades have very little difficulty getting bids, and the top minority women are going to the top chapters.

But, none of this addresses the larger issue of the demographics who are being attracted to recruitment, which arguable skews whiter than overall student populations.

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

That's been my experience, too. It seems to be true even on campuses where most chapters COB. My theory is that, as noted upthread, "top-tier" NPC chapters sometimes have more of a cookie-cutter skinny white look (sometimes also blonde). The weaker recruiting chapters are more likely to be diverse in terms of appearance and body type, even if all the members are white. If I'm a nonwhite woman, even if I'm skinny and Hollywood pretty, I might gravitate toward the WRC where there's more than one OK way to look, and it doesn't seem like fitting a visual mold is key to belonging.

I'll agree that I find WRCs are typically more diverse, but I'm not so sure it's that PNM preferences are the main drivers here. I think you're going to see a combination of factors - soft discrimination, typical beauty stereotypes that emphasize skinny blonde girls, and a differences in recruitment preparation between demographic groups.

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

Wow. Ok. First - look at the student demographics at ASU - it's 65% + white, and an additional 8% is "unknown", and 7% is "International", so those numbers could be even higher. The student population is only 3% African American. You forget that in the southwest and west coast, demographics represent large Asian and Hispanic populations, not African American populations. (SOURCE)

Those numbers appear to be old stats regarding degree distribution by race – these may be more up-to-date and detailed:

ASU
1.8% American Indian/Alaskan Native
6.1% Asian
5.3% Black/African-American
20.1% Hispanic/Latino
3.1% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.3% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
62.2% White
1.2% Unknown

International Students
3.9% from 93 countries
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg06_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1096

University of Alabama
0.4% American Indian/Alaskan Native
1.1% Asian
12.1% Black/African-American
2.9% Hispanic/Latino
1.7% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.1% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
81.3% White
0.3% Unknown

International Students
2.3% from 47 countries
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/c...l?schoolId=469

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

Second - the point being made was that PNMs are not being turned away due to blatant race issues, although I concede that there may be some soft discrimination - we all have biases in favor of people who are similar to ourselves.

I think the assumption has been (based on the assumption made and spun by authors of news articles) that the young lady of attention last fall at Bama was released by all chapters. She dropped out of formal recruitment, thus the assumption, but perhaps not because all chapters released her.

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

The point is that at many schools, minority women of all stripes and shades have very little difficulty getting bids, and the top minority women are going to the top chapters.

FWIW, there are also women of other minorities in chapters at Bama. Even in the chapter most often featured in the press for releasing the trustee’s granddaughter.

Also FWIW, Alabama colleges and universities within an hour’s distance of Bama also have minority members in their NPC chapters – all of these campuses have AA NPC chapter members: University of Alabama Birmingham, Birmingham Southern, Samford, University of Montevallo, and the University of West Alabama – that I know of. And so do universities in other regions of the state. I don’t know if onlookers in other areas of the country realize that.

So in my mind, this seems less a state of Alabama issue (or less a problem persisting in the south, as some have generalized), and more an issue involving the huge intensive recruitment at Bama – and AA women as the minority underrepresented.

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

But, none of this addresses the larger issue of the demographics who are being attracted to recruitment, which arguable skews whiter than overall student populations.

I agree – I understand as few as 2 (and at most 4) AA PNMs participated (at some point) in NPC recruitment at Bama last fall. Even with a COB round implemented specifically to recruit and pledge minority women, relatively few AA women joined. Unless far many more register for recruitment, I don’t know how the goal of “complete integration,” as recently passed by the SGA , will be accomplished. (not that I read the resolution, but it seems a lot like grandstanding after the fact)

I feel like any racial barriers to the NPC recruitment process have been moved aside as much as is institutionally possible. The question I have raised, however, is . . . will this be enough to accomplish that goal?

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

Those numbers appear to be old stats regarding degree distribution by race – these may be more up-to-date and detailed:

ASU
1.8% American Indian/Alaskan Native
6.1% Asian
5.3% Black/African-American
20.1% Hispanic/Latino
3.1% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.3% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
62.2% White
1.2% Unknown

International Students
3.9% from 93 countries
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg06_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1096

University of Alabama
0.4% American Indian/Alaskan Native
1.1% Asian
12.1% Black/African-American
2.9% Hispanic/Latino
1.7% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.1% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
81.3% White
0.3% Unknown

International Students
2.3% from 47 countries
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/c...l?schoolId=469




I think the assumption has been (based on the assumption made and spun by authors of news articles) that the young lady of attention last fall at Bama was released by all chapters. She dropped out of formal recruitment, thus the assumption, but perhaps not because all chapters released her.



FWIW, there are also women of other minorities in chapters at Bama. Even in the chapter most often featured in the press for releasing the trustee’s granddaughter.

Also FWIW, Alabama colleges and universities within an hour’s distance of Bama also have minority members in their NPC chapters – all of these campuses have AA NPC chapter members: University of Alabama Birmingham, Birmingham Southern, Samford, University of Montevallo, and the University of West Alabama – that I know of. And so do universities in other regions of the state. I don’t know if onlookers in other areas of the country realize that.

So in my mind, this seems less a state of Alabama issue (or less a problem persisting in the south, as some have generalized), and more an issue involving the huge intensive recruitment at Bama – and AA women as the minority underrepresented.



I agree – I understand as few as 2 (and at most 4) AA PNMs participated (at some point) in NPC recruitment at Bama last fall. Even with a COB round implemented specifically to recruit and pledge minority women, relatively few AA women joined. Unless far many more register for recruitment, I don’t know how the goal of “complete integration,” as recently passed by the SGA , will be accomplished. (not that I read the resolution, but it seems a lot like grandstanding after the fact)

I feel like any racial barriers to the NPC recruitment process have been moved aside as much as is institutionally possible. The question I have raised, however, is . . . will this be enough to accomplish that goal?

Would you want to be an AA woman who joined an NPC sorority in the middle of that hurly burly at Alabama last fall? I wouldn't. I'd feel like I was under a microscope with the Crimson, the nationals and the administration all looking at me. I'd feel like I was only being pledged because I was black and not because the sorority really wanted me. I'd feel like my bid was given grudgingly. I'd feel like I was a token member who was giving the chapter(s) cover for being as racist as they wanna be. In the second article posted to this thread, an AA PNM said that she chose to join AKA over an NPC sorority because she didn't feel entirely welcome at NPC sororities. I totally get that and I'd feel the same as her in that situation.

I don't think the system will ever completely integrate and I don't think that should be our goal. If you're counting what percentage of AA women are Greek on any campus, you have to count the women who join historically black GLOs in that percentage. It's not fair or true to say that Alabama has an all white sorority system. It doesn't. It does have an overly segregated system, though, and that system didn't treat AA PNMs fairly when it came to NPC recruitment.

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by KDCat

Would you want to be an AA woman who joined an NPC sorority in the middle of that hurly burly at Alabama last fall? I wouldn't.

No, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t want to be her mother either.

Originally Posted by KDCat

I'd feel like I was under a microscope with the Crimson, the nationals and the administration all looking at me.

And ^that’s why. I wouldn’t want my daughter to be fodder for the press, especially for those interested in manufacturing a sensational story regardless of the outcome. The article linked at the beginning of this thread is a tabloid-type example of how some continue to milk the controversy:

University Of Alabama’s Sororities Still Resist Integrating
Seven months after allegations of racism were raised, little has changed.

What exactly should have changed since last fall (that hasn’t) to deliver Bama sororities from segregation? In what ways are sororities "resisting?"

Originally Posted by KDCat

I'd feel like I was only being pledged because I was black and not because the sorority really wanted me. I'd feel like my bid was given grudgingly. I'd feel like I was a token member who was giving the chapter(s) cover for being as racist as they wanna be.

Certainly understandable, though according to the media coverage, actives in identified sororities did want a particular AA member. The other girls who accepted bids must have felt the offer was sincere, otherwise, why would they accept?

Originally Posted by KDCat

In the second article posted to this thread, an AA PNM said that she chose to join AKA over an NPC sorority because she didn't feel entirely welcome at NPC sororities. I totally get that and I'd feel the same as her in that situation.

She did not elect to participate in any NPC recruitment, yet takes a swipe at the sororities offering her a bid. If anything, her assumption that she would be “criticized and ostracized” is just divisive speculation – she essentially spit on the chapters who extended an offer. And then she joined a segregated AA sorority:

UA sophomore Khortlan Patterson, a black woman from Houston, was offered multiple bids to join Alabama’s traditionally white Panhellenic sororities but turned them down. “I don’t want to pay $6,000 a year to get criticized and ostracized,” Patterson said. “I don’t want to pay money to be a part of that.”
Instead, Patterson pledged Alpha Kappa Alpha, the first historically African-American sorority. She considered joining a Panhellenic chapter in order to push change from the inside, but ultimately, Patterson decided it would have been more of a trial than an opportunity.

I think Miss Patterson is more interested in media attention than promoting change. Her words will certainly not encourage other AA women to pursue NPC membership.

Originally Posted by KDCat

I don't think the system will ever completely integrate and I don't think that should be our goal.

I’m still trying to figure out what “completely integrate” means. What does it mean? At what threshold will a chapter be considered integrated?

I can’t think of a more favorable situation for a minority PNM to receive a bid from a historically white sorority than UofA rush this fall. And I can’t think of a more UNfavorable situation for PNMs and chapters in terms of media and administrative attention than UofA rush this fall.

It may be a very stressful fall recruitment for all concerned. If the chapters offer a bid to an AA PNM, they face accusations of “tokenism.” If they release an AA PNM, they face accusations of racism. The AA PNMs face the prospect of scrutiny by onlookers (administrative and otherwise) and unwanted attention by those seeking a story.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

She did not elect to participate in any NPC recruitment, yet takes a swipe at the sororities offering her a bid. If anything, her assumption that she would be “criticized and ostracized” is just divisive speculation – she essentially spit on the chapters who extended an offer. And then she joined a segregated AA sorority:

No. No. No.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

...a segregated AA sorority:

Stuff like this is why this thread is just back-and-forth nonsense.

I think HartofSEC is one of the people in the older thread who claimed not to notice or be concerned with race because "she's a sister".

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

No, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t want to be her mother either.



And ^that’s why. I wouldn’t want my daughter to be fodder for the press, especially for those interested in manufacturing a sensational story regardless of the outcome. The article linked at the beginning of this thread is a tabloid-type example of how some continue to milk the controversy:


What exactly should have changed since last fall (that hasn’t) to deliver Bama sororities from segregation? In what ways are sororities "resisting?"




Certainly understandable, though according to the media coverage, actives in identified sororities did want a particular AA member. The other girls who accepted bids must have felt the offer was sincere, otherwise, why would they accept?



She did not elect to participate in any NPC recruitment, yet takes a swipe at the sororities offering her a bid. If anything, her assumption that she would be “criticized and ostracized” is just divisive speculation – she essentially spit on the chapters who extended an offer. And then she joined a segregated AA sorority:


I think Miss Patterson is more interested in media attention than promoting change. Her words will certainly not encourage other AA women to pursue NPC membership.



I’m still trying to figure out what “completely integrate” means. What does it mean? At what threshold will a chapter be considered integrated?

I can’t think of a more favorable situation for a minority PNM to receive a bid from a historically white sorority than UofA rush this fall. And I can’t think of a more UNfavorable situation for PNMs and chapters in terms of media and administrative attention than UofA rush this fall.

It may be a very stressful fall recruitment for all concerned. If the chapters offer a bid to an AA PNM, they face accusations of “tokenism.” If they release an AA PNM, they face accusations of racism. The AA PNMs face the prospect of scrutiny by onlookers (administrative and otherwise) and unwanted attention by those seeking a story.

"Completely integrate" = AA women rush and are bid in numbers representative of their percentage of the campus population. My previous point about that was that I think it's better to look at total percentages of AA women served by both NPC sororities and by historically AA sororities and multicultural societies.

Please don't bag on AKA. When white students present themselves as PNMS and are being excluded from AKA because of their race, AKA can deal with that problem then. In this case, NPC sororities at Alabama excluded AA PNMs because of their skin color. That's not fair. That's not in compliance with our current membership selection standards. We need to get into compliance with our own standards.

NOT being in compliance with our own standards is what caused this problem. If one particular AA PNM talked some stuff about our chapters, we pretty much had it coming for not living up to the standards we have set for ourselves.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by KDCat

When white students present themselves as PNMS and are being excluded from AKA because of their race, AKA can deal with that problem then.

And it is NOT equivalent. Setting aside the fact that there are indeed white women in AKA, people in the historically oppressed group are entitled to spaces of their own. AKA is not obligated to integrate at any point in order for NPC groups to be a problem.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KDCat

"Completely integrate" = AA women rush and are bid in numbers representative of their percentage of the campus population. My previous point about that was that I think it's better to look at total percentages of AA women served by both NPC sororities and by historically AA sororities and multicultural sororities.

If that's truly what the resolution meant, that's really stupid. (I know you are the messenger not the author. :-)) That's along the same lines of people who thought A-A people wanted to integrate schools because they were super excited about going to school with white people.

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by KDCat

"Completely integrate" = AA women rush and are bid in numbers representative of their percentage of the campus population. My previous point about that was that I think it's better to look at total percentages of AA women served by both NPC sororities and by historically AA sororities and multicultural societies.

I don't anticipate that AA girls will participate in NPC recruitment at numbers approaching those, in the near future anyway. As it is, there are fewer than 100 (far fewer in spring) total members of the NPHC sororities on campus.

Originally Posted by KDCat

Please don't bag on AKA. When white students present themselves as PNMS and are being excluded from AKA because of their race, AKA can deal with that problem then. In this case, NPC sororities at Alabama excluded AA PNMs because of their skin color. That's not fair. That's not in compliance with our current membership selection standards. We need to get into compliance with our own standards.

NOT being in compliance with our own standards is what caused this problem. If one particular AA PNM talked some stuff about our chapters, we pretty much had it coming for not living up to the standards we have set for ourselves.

I wasn't criticizing AKA. I was criticizing Miss Patterson's disparaging assumptions.

On the other hand, you seem to be implying that your chapter at Bama excluded the 2 (?) AA PNMs because of their skin color. How do you know this? Were you privy to their membership selection?