E-Mails Suggest Paterno Role in Silence on Sandusky

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I think I heard as well that the students on scholarship get to keep them, they just don't get to play football.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why wouldn't they get to play football? They still have a football team and they will still play in the fall - they just can't play in a bowl game.

The scholarship limitations don't go into effect until 2014, so they have time to get their numbers down - they don't have to kick 20 guys off the team - they just can't sign many next year or over the next few years.

Granted, they may have some guys who don't want to play anymore after all of this and still want to stay at Penn State.

The current players can also transfer without penalty meaning they can play immediately at another school if they can find another school who will take them.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

The scholarship limitations don't go into effect until 2014, so they have time to get their numbers down - they don't have to kick 20 guys off the team - they just can't sign many next year or over the next few years.

I thought they had to gradually cut...10 off next year, and then 20 the following. I guess you are right, though, they could just wait for guys to graduate and not replace them.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I didn't think there was anything to prevent someone from instituting a privately funded scholarship. I'm not talking under the table. Maybe I'm understanding the "scholarships" that are being removed incorrectly...I thought they meant ones that come straight from the NCAA.

Nothing comes "straight from the NCAA" - all athletic scholarships are paid for by the school/donors/gate receipts/etc.

You can make as many 'endowed' scholarships as you'd like, but you can only have 85 scholarship players on the roster - otherwise, every QB in the nation would magically have academic talents that earn a non-athletic scholarship.

Some sports that have "divided" scholarships (for example, baseball teams get around 12 scholarships for 25ish players) have slightly different rules, but on the whole, there's no real differentiation in how the student receives the aid.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I think I heard as well that the students on scholarship get to keep them, they just don't get to play football.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the ruling from the NCAA that any student who wished to leave the PSU football team could retain his scholarship as long as he met the other requirements set forth by rule - so if somebody said "hell with this" PSU can't cut them and take back the scholarship (as they usually can with any other one).

It's possible for football teams to 'cut' players from scholarship, but it's not the most common practice, for a variety of reasons that aren't all that important here - but the NCAA stepped in and is allowing players to voluntarily leave the roster, but retain their scholarship.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I thought they had to gradually cut...10 off next year, and then 20 the following. I guess you are right, though, they could just wait for guys to graduate and not replace them.

This is actually how it works out - the penalty is 20 total scholarships, starting with 10 initially, applied over the entire 4 years. They can't really just wait it out - it's 10 now, 10 more the next year, then they're capped at 65 the two after that.

Signing classes are limited 25 players up to the 85 total (which often happens due to attrition), so you can see why the penalty is considered very hard on a team - you're losing 40%+ of two classes, which might have a 50% "hit rate" anyway if you're lucky. That's without considering who would even want to sign the first few (non-bowl) years.

In many ways, PSU was crippled as a football program, but in a way that doesn't affect the rest of the Big10 or other teams PSU plays. Whether or not that's a good thing is very much up for debate.

[TSteven]

According to the Sports Illustrated article linked above, Penn State will not be able to give out more than 15 scholarships in any year during the four year span. The article noted that this is 10 fewer scholarships than the usual maximum allowed by the NCAA.

[TSteven]

This may help explain Penn State’s scholarship situation. From Philly.com

Loss of scholarships will cripple Penn State team

"As part of the sanctions agreed on by NCAA president Mark Emmert and Penn State president Rodney Erickson, Penn State football will be limited to 15 scholarships per class from the 2013-2014 academic year through 2016-2017, and cannot exceed 65 scholarship players from the 2014 season through the end of the 2017 season.

While the 2018 team will be eligible for 85 scholarships, Penn State won't have a team made up of four classes recruited at the usual 25 scholarships until 2020."

[agzg]

Originally Posted by TSteven

This may help explain Penn State’s scholarship situation. From Philly.com

Loss of scholarships will cripple Penn State team

"As part of the sanctions agreed on by NCAA president Mark Emmert and Penn State president Rodney Erickson, Penn State football will be limited to 15 scholarships per class from the 2013-2014 academic year through 2016-2017, and cannot exceed 65 scholarship players from the 2014 season through the end of the 2017 season.

While the 2018 team will be eligible for 85 scholarships, Penn State won't have a team made up of four classes recruited at the usual 25 scholarships until 2020."

Thank you - I was confused as to where the 15 instead of 25, 85 instead of 65 was coming in.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by agzg

Thank you - I was confused as to where the 15 instead of 25, 85 instead of 65 was coming in.

Essentially, it's a relic of the fact that students will have 5 years to complete 4 years of eligibility, so the reduction takes place both yearly and overall.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

The current players can also transfer without penalty meaning they can play immediately at another school if they can find another school who will take them.

I think this as a consolation prize is total bullshit. Doesn't everyone pretty much have their teams together and their scholarships given out at this point? It would be a little different if this was all happening in December or January but the timing for this to be actually helpful just isn't there.

OK, I understand re the scholarships. But what if Freddy Football Freshman gets drafted without a scholarship, and a good-hearted citizen in Freddy's hometown wants to set up a "Send Freddy To School" page on Facebook and gets more money than bullied schoolbus monitor? Will they get penalized for that? Will it matter if the good-hearted citizen is a PSU alumnus?

Even after all this, I'm betting that there are still people who would rather go into debt and play for Penn State than get a scholarship and play elsewhere. I'm sure that's not a unique matter for any school that has generations of families attending there.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Doesn't everyone pretty much have their teams together and their scholarships given out at this point?

Yes, but the NCAA has made allowances for that. If another school was interested in a Penn State player (and the player was also interested in that other school), that school could exceed its allotted number of scholarships to make room for the Penn State guy. The school would have to make up for that overage next year, but for schools that may not have much depth in a particular position, it might very well be worth it.

From what I gather from reading other coaches reactions, many are evaluating their teams depth chart and looking at the Penn State roster to see if there's a player who could help them out. ETA: Meaning, even though the teams are already together and scholarships assigned, there will still be opportunities for Penn State players to get some meaningful playing time.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Essentially, it's a relic of the fact that students will have 5 years to complete 4 years of eligibility, so the reduction takes place both yearly and overall.

That makes sense.

Originally Posted by 33girl

I think this as a consolation prize is total bullshit. Doesn't everyone pretty much have their teams together and their scholarships given out at this point? It would be a little different if this was all happening in December or January but the timing for this to be actually helpful just isn't there.

OK, I understand re the scholarships. But what if Freddy Football Freshman gets drafted without a scholarship, and a good-hearted citizen in Freddy's hometown wants to set up a "Send Freddy To School" page on Facebook and gets more money than bullied schoolbus monitor? Will they get penalized for that? Will it matter if the good-hearted citizen is a PSU alumnus?

Even after all this, I'm betting that there are still people who would rather go into debt and play for Penn State than get a scholarship and play elsewhere. I'm sure that's not a unique matter for any school that has generations of families attending there.

What about walk-ons with academic scholarships?

[33girl]

As a player, I would just be awfully worried about getting fed a line and then getting there and sitting on the bench. Scholarship or not.

agzg - good question. I would think that an academic scholarship wouldn't be "penalized."

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by agzg

What about walk-ons with academic scholarships?

There are pretty strict rules about this - essentially, walk-ons can only earn academic scholarships when the school can prove that the scholarship was given based purely on merit (unrelated to athletics), and that the award was no more (or, I guess, less) than what other comparable students received.

Obviously the academic scholarship is tied to academic standing, and not football.

So-called "outside scholarships" (33's "Good-hearted citizen" in this instance - basically anything given by entities other than the school) are VERY strongly policed - they are the easiest source of impermissible benefits, obviously.

As far as "poaching" players/lying to players - there's apparently something of a "gentleman's agreement*" among B10 coaches (and some that know O'Brien from the wayback) not to contact athletes directly, but that any athlete that expresses interest in a specific program can be accepted. So basically, no recruiting within the conference - obviously outside groups ("Smoke weed/ talk shit like Lane Kiffin" --Lil Weezy) aren't beholden, and if you didn't see USC's press conference love letter to Silas Redd you should check it out. However, it's essentially the same as 'regular' recruiting, except the player has gone through however many years of workouts and can make an even better determination of how the depth chart etc. look.

*May not apply to Urban Meyer

[WhiteRose1912]

Jerry Sandusky voicemails to "Victim 2" released by lawyers who plan to sue Penn State

A man who claims he was "Victim 2" - the boy assaulted in a Penn State shower by Jerry Sandusky - intends to sue the university for its "egregious and reckless conduct," his lawyers said Thursday.

The lawyers said in a statement they have gathered "overwhelming evidence" of the abuse, and they released recordings of two voicemails they say were from Sandusky last year, both saying "love you" to the victim.

The voicemails are dated Sept. 12 and Sept. 19, 2011, less than two months before the former assistant coach was arrested on child sex abuse charges.

The second voicemail asks whether Victim 2 would like to attend Penn State's next game.

Sandusky left "numerous" voicemails for their client in the fall of 2011, the attorneys said.

(more at the article)


Transcripts:
September 12, 2011:

Transcription:
"…Jere. Um. I am probably not going to be able to get a hold of anybody. Um. Uh. Probably ought to just go forward. Uh. I would be very firm and express my feelings, uh, upfront. Um. But, uh, you know, there is nothing really to hide so. Um. If you want, give me a call. You can call me on my other cell phone or on this one, either one so. Alright, take care. Love you. Uh. Hope you get this message. Thanks."


September 19, 2011:

Transcription:
"…Just calling to see you know whether you had any interest in going to the Penn State game this Saturday. Uh. If you could get back to me and let me know, uh, I would appreciate it and when you get this message, uh, give me a call and I hope to talk to you later. Thanks. I love you."

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I think this as a consolation prize is total bullshit. Doesn't everyone pretty much have their teams together and their scholarships given out at this point? It would be a little different if this was all happening in December or January but the timing for this to be actually helpful just isn't there.

OK, I understand re the scholarships. But what if Freddy Football Freshman gets drafted without a scholarship, and a good-hearted citizen in Freddy's hometown wants to set up a "Send Freddy To School" page on Facebook and gets more money than bullied schoolbus monitor? Will they get penalized for that? Will it matter if the good-hearted citizen is a PSU alumnus?

Even after all this, I'm betting that there are still people who would rather go into debt and play for Penn State than get a scholarship and play elsewhere. I'm sure that's not a unique matter for any school that has generations of families attending there.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about "the consolation prize being BS". NCAA sanctions aren't usually very fair to the guys playing on that team at the time who rarely had anything to do with the reason the team is being punished in the first place, but this isn't the first time that's happened and it won't be the last, so Penn State's players aren't unique in that regard which, I know, isn't going to make it sting for them any less. Personally, while I'm sorry for them, that pales in comparison to the pity I feel for the victims, and if this is what it takes for every other coach and school administrator to get the message that some things are bigger than your school and your football team's reputation - so be it.

As Sydney K pointed out, the NCAA has, in this case, tried to do everything I think they can, under the circumstances, to give these players options. Other teams can pick them up without hurting their limits this year (schools like USC, which have their own scholarships limitations due to sanctions are an exception- but they still have two scholarships to offer and are already talking to PSU RB recruit). They will have to count them against next year's total.

K Sig RC and TSteven have a better understanding of the NCAA rules and regulations than I do (I love college football and have gotten familiar with some of the rules and regulations, but I don't know a lot of the ins and outs), so they can correct me if I'm mistaken on this, but an alum setting up a scholarship for a specific kid who then walks on to the football team would be an NCAA violation (providing improper benefits). If a walk-on receives financial aid from a school and stays on a team, for instance, they don't count against the total their first year, but they do if they continue on the team a second year. Again, I'll defer K Sig RC and TSteven on this, but I would think if this could be done, teams would have been doing it for awhile to get around the total limits.

There may be some players who have always dreamed of playing at Penn State and who will choose to go there, walk-on, and play there even if it means going into debt, and if so, hey, kudos to them, but honestly I can think of very few instances, outside of a Harvard or Yale or a school with a religous emphasis (Notre Dame, BYU) where a talented kid with other good options would choose to go as a walk on, particularly if it meant four years of student debt, rather than take a scholarship offer to another school and I can't think of many parents, regardless of how many generations went to that school, that would let them. Now, if the only other offers they had were to much smaller programs or vastly inferior schools and they knew they had no NFL potential, they just wanted to try and play football while they were in school because they love playing - then I could see that scenario, but that player is unlikely to be of much help to Penn State in the Big 10.

A player might get fed a line and sit on the bench, but that's always a risk whenever you sign an LOI. It might have happened at Penn State without the sanctions. A college football player usually knows that's a possibility. All you can do is look at the coach's record, talk to his players, and look at who your position competition is then make your call.

[als463]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

I don't necessarily disagree with you about "the consolation prize being BS". NCAA sanctions aren't usually very fair to the guys playing on that team at the time who rarely had anything to do with the reason the team is being punished in the first place, but this isn't the first time that's happened and it won't be the last, so Penn State's players aren't unique in that regard which, I know, isn't going to make it sting for them any less. Personally, while I'm sorry for them, that pales in comparison to the pity I feel for the victims, and if this is what it takes for every other coach and school administrator to get the message that some things are bigger than your school and your football team's reputation - so be it.

As Sydney K pointed out, the NCAA has, in this case, tried to do everything I think they can, under the circumstances, to give these players options. Other teams can pick them up without hurting their limits this year (schools like USC, which have their own scholarships limitations due to sanctions are an exception- but they still have two scholarships to offer and are already talking to PSU RB recruit). They will have to count them against next year's total.

K Sig RC and TSteven have a better understanding of the NCAA rules and regulations than I do (I love college football and have gotten familiar with some of the rules and regulations, but I don't know a lot of the ins and outs), so they can correct me if I'm mistaken on this, but an alum setting up a scholarship for a specific kid who then walks on to the football team would be an NCAA violation (providing improper benefits). If a walk-on receives financial aid from a school and stays on a team, for instance, they don't count against the total their first year, but they do if they continue on the team a second year. Again, I'll defer K Sig RC and TSteven on this, but I would think if this could be done, teams would have been doing it for awhile to get around the total limits.

There may be some players who have always dreamed of playing at Penn State and who will choose to go there, walk-on, and play there even if it means going into debt, and if so, hey, kudos to them, but honestly I can think of very few instances, outside of a Harvard or Yale or a school with a religous emphasis (Notre Dame, BYU) where a talented kid with other good options would choose to go as a walk on, particularly if it meant four years of student debt, rather than take a scholarship offer to another school and I can't think of many parents, regardless of how many generations went to that school, that would let them. Now, if the only other offers they had were to much smaller programs or vastly inferior schools and they knew they had no NFL potential, they just wanted to try and play football while they were in school because they love playing - then I could see that scenario, but that player is unlikely to be of much help to Penn State in the Big 10.

A player might get fed a line and sit on the bench, but that's always a risk whenever you sign an LOI. It might have happened at Penn State without the sanctions. A college football player usually knows that's a possibility. All you can do is look at the coach's record, talk to his players, and look at who your position competition is then make your call.

The only thing I want to add to this is that you would be very surprised by how many parents who are part of a long history of Penn State Alumni would actually stand behind their child if they chose to stay. I say this because I have talked to numerous Penn State Alumni who have had their children get offers from schools that I see as having much better academics (though I bleed blue and white and am completely proud of my alma mater) than Penn State and turn them down to attend PSU. In fact, I have a sorority sister who attended another university where she pledged our sorority. She married a Penn State Alum and she really wants to see her daughter (who is under age 10) go to PSU and join my chapter. I LOVE that idea and will be the first one in line wanting to write her daughter, who is a sweetheart, a rec. I'm just saying that people give birth thinking, "Yep, this is a future Nittany Lion." I say this to show how deep it goes. Before anyone assumes this is because people are all about the "football" aspect of Penn State, it has much more to do with it than that. The degrees I hold in certain programs rank very high in the country. Academics are a major aspect of it.