Teaching formal manners as part of pledging/new membership?

[ASTalumna06]

My chapter held an etiquette dinner at least once a year as a Membership Growth and Development event. You could hire members of the campus catering staff to host it, and we would be served food from the cafeteria on campus.. But the dinner was held in a much nicer place, and we all wore badge attire.

I learned a lot from those dinners - everything from setting the table, to seasoning/eating your food, to what to do with your napkin when leaving the table. I think EVERYONE could benefit from something like this.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Also, one piece of food should be cut from the whole at a time, the knife put down then the piece raised to the mouth with the fork, then the fork placed on the plate while the piece is eaten. I don't always follow those rules, but if I was going to instruct someone, I'd do it right. Same rules for buttering bread. Never butter a whole roll at one time. Bite sized pieces at a time should be buttered. AOII didn't teach etiquette. I took a class in college.

As BAcckbOwlsgIrl points out, with the meat cutting, it depends on whether you're eating using the American or Continental style. And even with the American way, I've been taught that if you're being strict about it, cutting one piece at a time is proper. However, it is typical for people to cut a few pieces at a time, which is ok as well. What you don't want to do is cut an entire piece of meat into small pieces all at once.

As for the bread and butter, this is absolutely correct. It now is one of my pet peeves when I'm out at a restaurant and I see someone butter an entire piece of bread and then bite into it. You should use the butter knife to put a small amount of butter on your bread plate (assuming the butter is coming from a shared butter dish), then you should break off a bite-sized piece, use your knife to butter the bread, put the knife down, then eat the bread.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

As BAcckbOwlsgIrl points out, with the meat cutting, it depends on whether you're eating using the American or Continental style. And even with the American way, I've been taught that if you're being strict about it, cutting one piece at a time is proper. However, it is typical for people to cut a few pieces at a time, which is ok as well. What you don't want to do is cut an entire piece of meat into small pieces all at once.

As for the bread and butter, this is absolutely correct. It now is one of my pet peeves when I'm out at a restaurant and I see someone butter an entire piece of bread and then bite into it. You should use the butter knife to put a small amount of butter on your bread plate (assuming the butter is coming from a shared butter dish), then you should break off a bite-sized piece, use your knife to butter the bread, put the knife down, then eat the bread.

The thing is, while technically correct, these are rather antiquated and probably not the most critical stuff to teach your members. The point of etiquette is to not be rude. It's far more important that people know not to chew with their mouth full or to return a napkin to the table than it is to course them in a bunch of arbitrary rules.

I think a good rule of thumb is to consider whether there is a good justification for the rule (e.g. you don't return your napkin to the table because it is dirty) in prioritizing the stuff members need to know.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

The thing is, while technically correct, these are rather antiquated and probably not the most critical stuff to teach your members. The point of etiquette is to not be rude. It's far more important that people know not to chew with their mouth full or to return a napkin to the table than it is to course them in a bunch of arbitrary rules.

I think a good rule of thumb is to consider whether there is a good justification for the rule (e.g. you don't return your napkin to the table because it is dirty) in prioritizing the stuff members need to know.

Amen.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

The point of etiquette is to not be rude.

Agreed, with a slight modification. The point of etiquette, and etiquette rules, is to know what to expect. In other words, the point is to lay a groundwork of basic assumptions about what is rude and what is not (and yes, DrPhil is quite right that quite a discussion can be had about whose assumptions those are) so that people know how to avoid giving offense. Without a doubt, some things are likely to be seen as much more rude than others (talking with one's mouth full vs. eating with the wrong fork), and the ultimate goal is indeed to not be rude.

But even the rules that can seem arbitrary can matter -- where you put the napkin when you get up from the table can be a signal to servers as to whether you're coming back. (In your chair means you're coming back; loosely folded to the left of your plate means you are not.)

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

But even the rules that can seem arbitrary can matter -- where you put the napkin when you get up from the table can be a signal to servers as to whether you're coming back. (In your chair means you're coming back; loosely folded to the left of your plate means you are not.)

Exactly! I know I'd be mad if my plate was cleared when I wasn't yet finished!

[naraht]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Exactly! I know I'd be mad if my plate was cleared when I wasn't yet finished!

One issue with teaching ettiquette at this banquet was that the wait staff was not nearly knowledgeable to appreciate it. For example, when we sat down, the caesar salad and roll were at each place as well as appropriate silverware and a desert (one of two different types) was between the eating area and the centerpiece. When they delivered the dinner they left the plastic cover on until the entire table was served and the picked them up, however the server didn't realize that one person had not been served (we had little place cards with the selected meal indicated by a colored dot. They *never* cleared the dinner plates from our table, when our table was done eating our dinners, we just sort of waited (as the plates had been cleared at *some* other tables, but eventually, we just gave up and traded our dinner dishes for the desert dishes.

What I think was true is that the woman running the catering/wait staff knew what to do, but everyone else was fairly clueless.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

But even the rules that can seem arbitrary can matter -- where you put the napkin when you get up from the table can be a signal to servers as to whether you're coming back. (In your chair means you're coming back; loosely folded to the left of your plate means you are not.)

This is actually debated among etiquette experts, so the best way to convey something to your server is to speak to them (or more precisely, they should ask you).

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

This is actually debated among etiquette experts, so the best way to convey something to your server is to speak to them (or more precisely, they should ask you).

Fair enough, but I will say it's how I was taught (by my parents/family -- never took a class). That said, I was taught that when placed on the table, the napkin should be loosely folded in such a way that no food can be seen on it.

[aephi alum]

Formal dinner-table etiquette was not part of my new member program. I learned proper etiquette from my parents, at the dinner table at home, starting as soon as I could hold a fork. IMO this is how it should be done.

Slight digression... I eat using the Continental style. My mother tried to teach me the American style, but she herself eats Continental style, so it was a matter of "do as I say, not as I do". Both methods are acceptable, so eventually she gave up.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

The thing is, while technically correct, these are rather antiquated and probably not the most critical stuff to teach your members. The point of etiquette is to not be rude. It's far more important that people know not to chew with their mouth full or to return a napkin to the table than it is to course them in a bunch of arbitrary rules.

I think a good rule of thumb is to consider whether there is a good justification for the rule (e.g. you don't return your napkin to the table because it is dirty) in prioritizing the stuff members need to know.

I won't argue with you (and what we learned wasn't restricted to rules like this - I just mentioned these because they were brought up). However, I do also think that certain rules should be followed to some extent. And depending on the setting, yes, they can be important. I've seen people not get jobs because of completely incorrect etiquette.

You don't have to be perfect all the time.. But holding your fork like a neanderthal, scarfing down food, and having not one thought about how you appear to others can lead to unpleasant meals for those around you. Although the rules don't have to be followed to a tee (I know I certainly don't do that), it does cause you to be more aware of how you should act while eating.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I won't argue with you....

Bad etiquette?

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Bad etiquette?

Haha and very rude!