"Taking someone else's spot"

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Yes, and they both can. It's just that by going when you have the opportunity but not so much the desire that you open yourself to things you may not have seen before. "rush crush" applies on both sides of the aisle.

But no, they can't. The chapters can cut the rushee, but not the other way around. That's what I'm trying to wrap my head around. As I understand from rules that have been posted or linked here, if she fails to attend a party, she's cut from rush completely. That's coercion, the way I see it.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by DGTess

But no, they can't. The chapters can cut the rushee, but not the other way around. That's what I'm trying to wrap my head around. As I understand from rules that have been posted or linked here, if she fails to attend a party, she's cut from rush completely. That's coercion, the way I see it.

Oh noes, don't tread on me!

If it's going to kill you to visit and be polite at a chapter that you don't want to go to in order to stay in the recruitment process, you've got a lot to learn about getting what you want in life.

[dgdramadawg]

Originally Posted by DGTess

But no, they can't. The chapters can cut the rushee, but not the other way around. That's what I'm trying to wrap my head around. As I understand from rules that have been posted or linked here, if she fails to attend a party, she's cut from rush completely. That's coercion, the way I see it.

But she's not required to list it on her pref card in the end. They're coercing a girl to give something another look, not forcing her to join.

At a big/competitive recruitment like the one I went through, I think most PNMs would rather be able to say they have a full party schedule if possible, even if it means they have to attend parties at chapters they don't particularly like. It always feels nice to have the invites and feel desired.

[VandalSquirrel]

I've got some in-between feelings here. I'd always rather go where I am truly wanted, so I'd rather have the chapters who actually want me invite me back and have a better idea of my realistic chances. So I really like a situation where women are given invitations and if they have more than they are supposed to they can choose and be given the option of using "regret" if they liked a chapter but had more invites than party slots. By not using regret then a chapter can see a woman is not interested and move on.

I also am torn about maximizing options to be available for QA or snap, as more often than not the woman has two chapters, one she wants to join and the other she doesn't. If a woman absolutely doesn't want to join the other chapter, that should be made clear for the sake of those chapters she doesn't want because it sucks to have women not show up on bid day, boo hooing, or just being negative. She'd still be eligible for COB but guess which chapters will likely be doing that, if at all.

I think the only time a "spot" is taken from a woman is during a bed rush, as mutual selection will keep women and chapters together through RFM, QA, and snap bidding.

Of course I truly believe in rush not before school starts, freshman not living in, and having events the first semester that are panhellenic and though not ideal for all campuses it could allow women to give chapters a chance and if they still only want XYZ and don't get it, they can't say the system cheated them as we could educate PNMs about the process for a whole semester/quarter.

[TriDeltaSallie]

How many stories do we read on here about women who didn't like ABC the first day and loved them the second day or even the third day? It happens ALL THE TIME.

Yes, the sorority women hold the whip hand. The PNMs want to think they have more control than they do, but they don't. Such is the nature of the beast. If you want a job, you jump through hoops. If you want to attend a certain school, you jump through hoops. If you want to join a sorority, you jump through hoops.

Welcome to life.

I've rushed women who did not want to be at my chapter and it stinks. No one likes dealing with a rude woman. But I still think the system works the best for everyone in the long run. I wish we had had RFM in place when I was in college. It might have made a huge difference on a campus where four chapters closed in a relatively short period of time.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by DGTess

But no, they can't. The chapters can cut the rushee, but not the other way around. That's what I'm trying to wrap my head around. As I understand from rules that have been posted or linked here, if she fails to attend a party, she's cut from rush completely. That's coercion, the way I see it.

Then you misunderstand. If she doesn't attend all she can she is not cut from recruitment. What happens is that she has not "maximized her options." Therefore, if she does not match to whoever she puts on her bid card she cannot be added as a quota addition. She may luck out and get her choice but she has no options if she doesn't. So it only applies at the end of recruitment insofaras how many options she has.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by Titchou

Then you misunderstand. If she doesn't attend all she can she is not cut from recruitment. What happens is that she has not "maximized her options." Therefore, if she does not match to whoever she puts on her bid card she cannot be added as a quota addition. She may luck out and get her choice but she has no options if she doesn't. So it only applies at the end of recruitment insofaras how many options she has.

I haven't heard of a school where a PNM is allowed to skip parties (unless excused) during formal recruitment without being released entirely.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

I haven't heard of a school where a PNM is allowed to skip parties (unless excused) during formal recruitment without being released entirely.

I haven't heard of one that does. If they do release her from recruitment for failure to accept an invitation they should be reported to their NPC Area Adviser. The requirement in the Green Book for Quota Additions states that
"this procedure shall never include a woman who lists an Intentional Single Preference on her Membership Recruitment Acceptance Agreement or one who has failed to accept or attend any membership recruitment event for which there was room in her membership recruitment schedule.

So obviously, she can decline to attend if they have to say what to do with her at bid matching.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I haven't heard of one that does. If they do release her from recruitment for failure to accept an invitation they should be reported to their NPC Area Adviser. The requirement in the Green Book for Quota Additions states that
"this procedure shall never include a woman who lists an Intentional Single Preference on her Membership Recruitment Acceptance Agreement or one who has failed to accept or attend any membership recruitment event for which there was room in her membership recruitment schedule.

So obviously, she can decline to attend if they have to say what to do with her at bid matching.

I'm not talking about QAs at all. What is to prohibit a College Panhellenic from requiring PNMs to attend all events for which they have room in their schedule? Otherwise, way more PNMs would ditch parties.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

I'm not talking about QAs at all. What is to prohibit a College Panhellenic from requiring PNMs to attend all events for which they have room in their schedule? Otherwise, way more PNMs would ditch parties.

Neither am I. It says what to do with ANY woman who fails to attend events on ANY day. Again I say, if they are making any woman who fails to accept an invitation leave recruitment, they should be reported.

Granted, it causes problems so they make the PNMs think they have to attend them all or they will get, at the least, ostracized. And they should. We all know that the ones you love on Day 1 are not necessarily those you love on Day 3. But reality and perception are two different things.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DGTess

But no, they can't. The chapters can cut the rushee, but not the other way around. That's what I'm trying to wrap my head around. As I understand from rules that have been posted or linked here, if she fails to attend a party, she's cut from rush completely. That's coercion, the way I see it.

Yes, the PNMs CAN "cut" chapters IF they have enough invitations to spare. You know, your perfect DG recruitment where you just wandered over to the house and chatted with the girls and ignored everyone else wouldn't seem so idyllic if you hadn't gotten a bid and were left wondering if there was a way to get to know ALL the groups instead of just wasting your time with one that didn't want you. Because that's the reality of recruitment. Have you ever even helped with modern recruitment?

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Yes, the PNMs CAN "cut" chapters IF they have enough invitations to spare. You know, your perfect DG recruitment where you just wandered over to the house and chatted with the girls and ignored everyone else wouldn't seem so idyllic if you hadn't gotten a bid and were left wondering if there was a way to get to know ALL the groups instead of just wasting your time with one that didn't want you. Because that's the reality of recruitment. Have you ever even helped with modern recruitment?

As I said, some have so kindly* reminded me I didn't go through the type of formal rush that some, or most, schools now use. Had I not been invited to DG, I would not be greek. I seriously doubt I would regret it, but it's one of those things I can never know.

I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".) I know I don't have a say; that's what happens in any representative form of government.

I've also heard "it's the system we're stuck with". To my mind, that's acceptance of status quo with no attempt at improvement, but again I realize I may be in the minority. I'm certainly not on the same page as the decision makers.

So you have your opinion, and I have mine. I'll not silence mine.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DGTess

I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".) I know I don't have a say; that's what happens in any representative form of government.

This is how fraternity rush works, for the most part. Fraternities also seem able to survive in a variety of sizes and spin it to their advantage (whether large, medium or small). Sororities don't. The smallest is usually looked at as the "weakest." Whether this is a male vs female thing or just what we've gotten used to, it's hard to say. You even hear guys saying this about sororities - it's not just a Panhellenic or nationals thing. However, it would be a hell of a leap of faith for the sororities to, at this point, throw quota and total out the window. It would most certainly bankrupt many, many chapters, if not a few national groups.

After 150 years, I don't think anyone wants to say "oh, let's just let the chips fall where they may."

carnation or someone who has more local insight could clarify, but I think a "survival of the fittest" situation is basically what has happened over the years at Arkansas, who just welcomed pledge classes of 130 members.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by DGTess

I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".) I know I don't have a say; that's what happens in any representative form of government.

I want to be sure I understand what you are saying. It appears to me that you are advocating all the power in the hands of the PNM and none in the chapter's by saying that "a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses."

Are you saying that we have to have her in our homes with no regard to who/what she may be? That's what it looks like you are saying. Do you really want your daughter in a group who has to open their house/suite to whomever may want in???? Yikes! if that's the case.

As a former director of housing I am vehemently against this. There is enough trouble to go around with those we have vetted (thru the sponsor form process) and who received a bid. Let's not let anyone just wander over.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by Titchou

I want to be sure I understand what you are saying. It appears to me that you are advocating all the power in the hands of the PNM and none in the chapter's by saying that "a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses."

Are you saying that we have to have her in our homes with no regard to who/what she may be? That's what it looks like you are saying. Do you really want your daughter in a group who has to open their house/suite to whomever may want in???? Yikes! if that's the case.

As a former director of housing I am vehemently against this. There is enough trouble to go around with those we have vetted (thru the sponsor form process) and who received a bid. Let's not let anyone just wander over.

No. I'm saying both should have equal opportunity to decline invitations - either issuing or accepting. As it currently stands, as I understand it, a rushee must attend all events to which she's invited (though there seems to be some dissension on this point, I've seen the policy in documents linked from this site), but may not decline an invitation to an event if she has room on her schedule. In my mind, that is not "mutual selection".