ITT We Discuss Theology

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by aephi alum

IMO, I'd love to see certain prayers (e.g. the Lord's Prayer) said in Latin, just as the Reform Jewish services I attend have the major prayers said in Hebrew while others are in English. But whatever. I'm no longer a Catholic, never mind part of the Church hierarchy, so I don't exactly get a say.

I like that because it brings the heritage to the Mass, just as Anglicans still use Latin titles for various parts of the services. Though one thing I really wish was for the Liturgical language to return to Greek. That makes the most sense to me personally. And oh aephi alum? IIRC, churches always have the option to celebrate the Mass in Latin. In fact celebrating in the vernacular is an option not a requirement. Please somebody correct me if wrong.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

We may be operating with different definitions of guilt. I think you are leaning more towards a definition for what I would label shame, which is a horse of a different colour. Guilt in and of itself is not a good thing, but as a motivating force - something which causes you to examine your actions - it is. Guilt implies a knowledge of right and wrong. Although I realize it is now quite the fashion to be a moral relativist, I'd argue that losing the perspective of right/wrong that leads to the kind of guilt I'm discussing has resulted in far more evil than the occasional misplaced guilt.

This is a very good distinction to make. I think that for many, guilt = guilt trip.

And I'm trying not feel itchy palms when you talk to Vito about ordering a BDW. I . . . don't . . . need . . . more . . . books.

Originally Posted by aephi alum

Interesting. This is the first I've learned of a new Roman Catholic liturgy. The new English does seem closer to the original Latin. There will be resistance, of course - my father has told me of his own reluctance to embrace the Mass said in the vernacular as opposed to Latin (he was about my age when that switchover took place).

I'm reminded of the story I heard JRR Tolkien's grandson tell of when he attended a Mass with his grandfather. It was soon after Vatican II, and he was mortified that his grandfather insisted on making all of the responses loudly and in Latin.

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Though one thing I really wish was for the Liturgical language to return to Greek. That makes the most sense to me personally.

Kyrie eleison.
Christe eleison.
Kyrie eleison.

(Or try a Greek Orthodox church.)

[SWTXBelle]

MC, if you can get a BDW for $15 you would be foolish not to - and yes, I realize I am an enabler. But the books weren't in the narthex - so fingers crossed someone didn't buy them out. I'll let y'all know as soon as I get the scoop!

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

And oh aephi alum? IIRC, churches always have the option to celebrate the Mass in Latin. In fact celebrating in the vernacular is an option not a requirement. Please somebody correct me if wrong.

I was taught that parishes were not only allowed but required to celebrate Mass in the vernacular, as an outcome of Vatican II. If the clergy at a parish wanted to celebrate a Latin Mass, they needed a dispensation from the Vatican. It could be a one-time dispensation (e.g. for Christmas or Easter) or a standing weekly dispensation as in the case of the parish in Vienna where I attended Mass. Perhaps this has changed? (I haven't been a practicing Catholic in over a decade.)

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by aephi alum

I was taught that parishes were not only allowed but required to celebrate Mass in the vernacular, as an outcome of Vatican II. If the clergy at a parish wanted to celebrate a Latin Mass, they needed a dispensation from the Vatican. It could be a one-time dispensation (e.g. for Christmas or Easter) or a standing weekly dispensation as in the case of the parish in Vienna where I attended Mass. Perhaps this has changed? (I haven't been a practicing Catholic in over a decade.)

Still true, although I believe Benedict has made it easier for parishes to get permission to have Latin Masses, particularly on a regular basis. I'm not sure if the petition still goes to the Vatican or if the bishops can now give permission. But your understanding's accurate.

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Order of the Mass.

http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/order-of-mass.pdf

Thank you, thank you!

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

We may be operating with different definitions of guilt. I think you are leaning more towards a definition for what I would label shame, which is a horse of a different colour. Guilt in and of itself is not a good thing, but as a motivating force - something which causes you to examine your actions - it is. Guilt implies a knowledge of right and wrong. Although I realize it is now quite the fashion to be a moral relativist, I'd argue that losing the perspective of right/wrong that leads to the kind of guilt I'm discussing has resulted in far more evil than the occasional misplaced guilt.

I think this is a good estimation of guilt moving towards something positive. I had a brilliant thought related to this at Mass this evening, but I cannot remember it for the life of me.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Still true, although I believe Benedict has made it easier for parishes to get permission to have Latin Masses, particularly on a regular basis. I'm not sure if the petition still goes to the Vatican or if the bishops can now give permission. But your understanding's accurate.

Actually according to Redemptionis Sacramentum (link),

[112.] Mass is celebrated either in Latin or in another language, provided that liturgical texts are used which have been approved according to the norm of law. Except in the case of celebrations of the Mass that are scheduled by the ecclesiastical authorities to take place in the language of the people, Priests are always and everywhere permitted to celebrate Mass in Latin.

In other words, unless the big wigs say there is supposed to be a Mass in the vernacular, any Mass can be celebrated in Latin. Many very conservative parishes incorporate a Latin Mass into their weekly schedule. Additionally neither the Second Vatican Council, nor the subsequent revisions to the Roman Missal abolished Latin as the liturgical language of the Roman Rite. This is why all vernacular texts of the Mass are translated from the Roman Missal (in Latin). I'm not sure if this is a change made after aephialum was in Vienna though...

ETA: Redemtionis Sacramentum is from 2004, so it may be a recent change, or this may have been in place already and not part of the revisions made.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

Thank you, thank you!



I think this is a good estimation of guilt moving towards something positive. I had a brilliant thought related to this at Mass this evening, but I cannot remember it for the life of me.



Actually according to Redemptionis Sacramentum (link),

In other words, unless the big wigs say there is supposed to be a Mass in the vernacular, any Mass can be celebrated in Latin. Many very conservative parishes incorporate a Latin Mass into their weekly schedule. Additionally neither the Second Vatican Council, nor the subsequent revisions to the Roman Missal abolished Latin as the liturgical language of the Roman Rite. This is why all vernacular texts of the Mass are translated from the Roman Missal (in Latin). I'm not sure if this is a change made after aephialum was in Vienna though...

ETA: Redemtionis Sacramentum is from 2004, so it may be a recent change, or this may have been in place already and not part of the revisions made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tridentine_Mass
I think I was thinking of the Tridentine Mass, which is typically called the Latin Mass. Permission is now sought from the parish priests rather than the bishops and Benedict gave a LOT more leeway for that. It uses the 1962 missal. If churches wish to have Mass in Latin from the current Novus Ordo missal, no permission is needed.

And then there are the churches who think Vatican II was something crazy the kids did in the sixties and use a previous missal. They tend to be in schism or in a weird quasi-schismatic state IIRC.

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

I'm not sure if this is a change made after aephialum was in Vienna though...

ETA: Redemtionis Sacramentum is from 2004, so it may be a recent change, or this may have been in place already and not part of the revisions made.

If the change occurred in 2004, then, yes, it was well after I had the opportunity to celebrate Mass in Latin as a teenager in Vienna, and also well after I converted to Judaism. Let's just say that I've celebrated my 29th birthday more than once.

I have to say that the Latin Mass was an unusual and inspiring religious experience for me, as well as an educational experience, as I was studying Latin in high school as a "dead language" and here it was being used as a living language in the 20th century. However, as I've said before, it was not the faith that was in my heart - that is Judaism.

There is an old joke: "Latin is a language, as dead as dead can be. First it killed the Romans... now it's killing me."