Philadelphia abortion doctor accused of murdering patient, newborns

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

...we could have not taken responsibility and took the "easy way out". We decided to own up to our choices.

Why is parenthood considered the only "noble" choice, even over adoption? Like, bragging that you took the toughest punishment. I don't know if I'm clearly explaining myself. I can't stand it when people who do choose parenthood get up on a high horse by saying they "took responsibility" for their actions, as if that's the only responsible course of action. AF, you were lucky you had the resources to care for a child, even though it probably seemed tough and most certainly changed the plans you initially had for your life.

It's irresponsible to bring a child into the world that you can't care for. According to NARAL Pro-Choice America, 1.3 million abortions are performed each year, and about 75% of those are performed because the woman can't afford a/another child. Oh, but there's always adoption. What would 980,000 additional wards of the state every year do to our economy (17.64 million at any given time after 18+ years of such a policy)? Yet, the same people who block access to reproductive choice are often the ones begging to cut government spending.

I agree this case is horrific. I hope it serves as an example of what happens when access to reproductive choice is blocked for those who need it most.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

Why is parenthood considered the only "noble" choice, even over adoption? Like, bragging that you took the toughest punishment. I don't know if I'm clearly explaining myself. I can't stand it when people who do choose parenthood get up on a high horse by saying they "took responsibility" for their actions, as if that's the only responsible course of action. AF, you were lucky you had the resources to care for a child, even though it probably seemed tough.

It's irresponsible to bring a child into the world that you can't care for. According to NARAL Pro-Choice America, 1.3 million abortions are performed each year, and about 75% of those are performed because the woman can't afford a/another child. Oh, but there's always adoption. What would 980,000 additional wards of the state every year do to our economy (17.6 million at any given time after 18+ years of such a policy)? Yet, the same people who block access to reproductive choice are often the ones begging to cut government spending.

I agree this case is horrific. I hope it serves as an example of what happens when access to reproductive choice is blocked for those who need it most.

You are right - it's not the only "noble" choice. There was another girl in my class who got pregnant her sophomore year of college, and she chose adoption. She found a family that was a great match for her. I applaud her for that. It was responsible. I still say abortion is NOT.

By your own statistics, 75% of abortions are post-conception birth control. That is way too high. Especially the "another" child part. It's not like they can claim ignorance of the birds and the bees on that one.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

You are right - it's not the only "noble" choice. There was another girl in my class who got pregnant her sophomore year of college, and she chose adoption. She found a family that was a great match for her. I applaud her for that. It was responsible. I still say abortion is NOT.

By your own statistics, 75% of abortions are post-conception birth control. That is way too high. Especially the "another" child part. It's not like they can claim ignorance of the birds and the bees on that one.

Not everyone has help from parents, a chance at a college degree, and a partner who is willing to help, you know.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

Not everyone has help from parents, a chance at a college degree, and a partner who is willing to help, you know.

Not everyone should be having unprotected sex, either.

If you don't have the means, support, etc to handle the consequences in a RESPONSIBLE manner, don't do the action.*

*This obviously excludes rape.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Not everyone should be having unprotected sex, either.

If you don't have the means, support, etc to handle the consequences in a RESPONSIBLE manner, don't do the action.*

*This obviously excludes rape.

I completely agree. But that means we need to make it easier to get contraception for every social class and remove the stigma from asking for these contraceptive methods. That means all types, including the pill and Plan B. The goal IS to reduce the need for abortion by responsible contraceptive use, but funding for contraceptives and family planning groups are constantly under attack. It's not a simple issue or one sided. Screaming that people just need to be responsible but not doing things to help them be responsible is pointless.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Not everyone should be having unprotected sex, either.

If you don't have the means, support, etc to handle the consequences in a RESPONSIBLE manner, don't do the action.*

*This obviously excludes rape.

First, life is not so black and white. Many women, including I don't doubt the ones that went to this "doctor" are not middle class college students. They don't always have access to birth control...or education.

Not to mention I know many women who have become pregant while having sex WITH protection. Again, this is not black and white. I would also like to point out that your definition of "handling the consequences in a responsible manner" is not the same as everyone else's.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

By your own statistics, 75% of abortions are post-conception birth control. That is way too high.

I thought your statistics said only 3% of abortions met the rape/incest/medical threats to the mother's life criteria? I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here. I said that of the women that have abortions, 75% say they can't afford parenthood. There are more that use abortion as "post-conception birth control" (whether or not they tried other methods) but have abortions for other reasons. Financial reasons are subjective. I'm sure that not all of those 75% are toeing the bankruptcy line.

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Especially the "another" child part. It's not like they can claim ignorance of the birds and the bees on that one.

I put "another" to be all inclusive. We're not only talking about teenagers and unmarried women. Just because a couple is married and has wanted children they can currently (but perhaps barely) afford doesn't mean they wouldn't seek an abortion if an unintended pregnancy were to occur. It is likely that such a couple would have less access to birth control pills or an IUD and the doctors visits required to continue such a prescription.

[AOII Angel]

I call into question that 97% as specious. There aren't just 3 reasons to have an abortion. If those are the only reasons given, maybe that would be the break down, but that displays a bias in the study from the onset. What about birth control failure? Not all people who haven't been raped or are seeking an abortion for a reason other than for their health were practicing unprotected sex. It doesn't sound as atrocious to report that these responsible people had birth control failure and chose abortion, so lumping them in with post- conception birth control is more efficacious for the cause. What about women who decide to reduce the number of fetuses after in vitro to protect the life of their other fetuses? That doesn't fit neatly into any of these three boxes but happens more frequently than you might think. You also haven't taken into account the many abortions that are performed because of fetal anomalies that are incompatible with life. These parents desperately want children but make the decision to terminate their pregnancies to prevent their children from suffering. Where does that fit? It doesn't fall into the maternal risk category. Your numbers are flawed.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I call into question that 97% as specious. There aren't just 3 reasons to have an abortion. If those are the only reasons given, maybe that would be the break down, but that displays a bias in the study from the onset. What about birth control failure? Not all people who haven't been raped or are seeking an abortion for a reason other than for their health were practicing unprotected sex. It doesn't sound as atrocious to report that these responsible people had birth control failure and chose abortion, so lumping them in with post- conception birth control is more efficacious for the cause. What about women who decide to reduce the number of fetuses after in vitro to protect the life of their other fetuses? That doesn't fit neatly into any of these three boxes but happens more frequently than you might think. You also haven't taken into account the many abortions that are performed because of fetal anomalies that are incompatible with life. These parents desperately want children but make the decision to terminate their pregnancies to prevent their children from suffering. Where does that fit? It doesn't fall into the maternal risk category. Your numbers are flawed.

Post conception birth control is still post conception birth control, regardless of whether a form of pre conception birth control was used.

The 1% was Health Reasons - mother OR child.


violetpretty - your "arguments" seem to be supporting my case, rather than refuting it. Not sure f that's your intention or not. I was using the stat more generous to the pro choicers to really say that any post conception birth control abortions are too many.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Post conception birth control is still post conception birth control, regardless of whether a form of pre conception birth control was used.

The 1% was Health Reasons - mother OR child.


violetpretty - your "arguments" seem to be supporting my case, rather than refuting it. Not sure f that's your intention or not. I was using the stat more generous to the pro choicers to really say that any post conception birth control abortions are too many.

Any abortion is post conception birth control. It is preventing the birth of a baby, just like a condom, just like getting your tubes tied, just like all forms of birth control. The goal is to not have a baby.

The "reason" for post conception birth control may vary, but I am not understanding your path of logic here. If I have a heart disease that will likely result in my death if I carry a pregnancy full term and my husband gets a vasectomy so that we don't have to worry about that but something doesn't work and I get pregnant anyway and abort that fetus to save my own life, it is STILL post conception birth control, isn't it?

I know more people who conceived babies while on some form of birth control than I do those who haven't.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

violetpretty - your "arguments" seem to be supporting my case, rather than refuting it. Not sure f that's your intention or not. I was using the stat more generous to the pro choicers to really say that any post conception birth control abortions are too many.

Um how? The bolded is where we disagree. I think women of every social class and age and in every state should be able to have an abortion for any reason at any time until viability free of harassment from protestors, biased counseling, parental notification, and mandatory waiting periods. Fewer restricitions and lower costs of EARLY abortions will eliminate/greatly reduce the need for LATE abortions, and if late abortions are needed for medical reasons, they can be performed at a safe reputable licensed regulated place.

ETA: When you said "too high" did you mean "too high" according to your moral beliefs or "too high" to be believable? At first I thought you meant the latter, but I am guessing now you meant the former.