Arizona governor signs immigration bill

[epchick]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Not exactly true

Well I'll go ahead and let all the people i know who have been waiting years, some even decades that it isn't "exactly true" that their struggle is harder than most.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by epchick

Well I'll go ahead and let all the people i know who have been waiting years, some even decades that it isn't "exactly true" that their struggle is harder than most.

Do you honestly even know that to be true? What proof do you have that Mexicans end up waiting longer than any other Nationality to get issued a Visa? Just because you know a few Mexicans that have been waiting for their Visa doesn't mean that everyone else in the world is getting right on in. For every Mexican waiting their is an African, European, Asian waiting as well.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Do you honestly even know that to be true? What proof do you have that Mexicans end up waiting longer than any other Nationality to get issued a Visa? Just because you know a few Mexicans that have been waiting for their Visa doesn't mean that everyone else in the world is getting right on in. For every Mexican waiting their is an African, European, Asian waiting as well.

To get into the US on a Visa you a) are brought in by a family member, there is a long ass line
b) are highly skilled in some field, being a doctor, a scientist, an engineer, particular professions that are highly desired, this requires a job offer from an employer*
c) you sign up for the lottery (individuals from certain countries need not apply)
d) you're a refugee (but only so many of you get in)
e) tiny numbers of very specialized other cases including non-clergy religious etc.

*there are 10k "Unskilled labor" positions available, of which no more than 7% of the total - 700 - can go to one single country. This includes any dependents that the individual may bring. So what, 200 unskilled Mexican laborers per year? Maybe? Assuming a family size of 3.

This shows the back logs for the types of Visas, the feds don't even report the unskilled backlog. Permanent Resident Card

More resources for you: How hard is it to immigrate?
How long does it take to get a green card

TL,DR: If you don't have a job, a family member who's a citizen or have 500k to drop, you're SOL

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

To get into the US on a Visa you a) are brought in by a family member, there is a long ass line
b) are highly skilled in some field, being a doctor, a scientist, an engineer, particular professions that are highly desired, this requires a job offer from an employer*
c) you sign up for the lottery (individuals from certain countries need not apply)
d) you're a refugee (but only so many of you get in)
e) tiny numbers of very specialized other cases including non-clergy religious etc.

*there are 10k "Unskilled labor" positions available, of which no more than 7% of the total - 700 - can go to one single country. This includes any dependents that the individual may bring. So what, 200 unskilled Mexican laborers per year? Maybe? Assuming a family size of 3.

This shows the back logs for the types of Visas, the feds don't even report the unskilled backlog. Permanent Resident Card

More resources for you: How hard is it to immigrate?
How long does it take to get a green card

TL,DR: If you don't have a job, a family member who's a citizen or have 500k to drop, you're SOL

I know about general Visa requirements, I wanted to see where it says that it's harder for a Mexican than a Somalian, Brazilian, Saudi, German, Indian, etc to immigrate to the U.S.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I know about general Visa requirements, I wanted to see where it says that it's harder for a Mexican than a Somalian, Brazilian, Saudi, German, Indian, etc to immigrate to the U.S.

I've laid out all the reasons right there, there aren't country quotas anymore, but take a poor country with low education and high population, 5-10 year backlog (per the feds themselves, I'm happy for your buddy but it's rarely that easy) on family visas for anyone other than the spouse of a citizen, and prohibition from joining the random lottery and there's every reason in the world to jump the very very long line if you can since they usually do find work here.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I've laid out all the reasons right there, there aren't country quotas anymore, but take a poor country with low education and high population, 5-10 year backlog (per the feds themselves, I'm happy for your buddy but it's rarely that easy) on family visas for anyone other than the spouse of a citizen, and prohibition from joining the random lottery and there's every reason in the world to jump the very very long line if you can since they usually do find work here.

What would you like to see happen? Would you like the U.S. to be the only industrialized nation in the world with no immigration laws?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

What would you like to see happen? Would you like the U.S. to be the only industrialized nation in the world with no immigration laws?

Don't go to the absurd.

I think it should be easier to immigrate the US legally.

Whether that means removing control of access to visas from corruption in other countries, removing the 7% limit, decreasing the cost, processing the backlog or all of the above, I don't know. I do know the current system promotes illegal immigration and I do believe that making immigration MORE difficult is the wrong way to go.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Do you honestly even know that to be true? What proof do you have that Mexicans end up waiting longer than any other Nationality to get issued a Visa?

Because i've seen it with my own eyes. I've tried to help people get their visas, written letters to the consulate where these particular people live and yet they've STILL been denied. I've witnessed others just walk in and ask for a Visa and they are handed one automatically.

I lived in a dorm of 200+ Asians, all from different countries and they all spoke about how easy it was for them to get a visa, and go back and forth between the US and their home country.

So really, don't try and implicate that I have no idea what it's like.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by epchick

Because i've seen it with my own eyes. I've tried to help people get their visas, written letters to the consulate where these particular people live and yet they've STILL been denied. I've witnessed others just walk in and ask for a Visa and they are handed one automatically.

I lived in a dorm of 200+ Asians, all from different countries and they all spoke about how easy it was for them to get a visa, and go back and forth between the US and their home country.

So really, don't try and implicate that I have no idea what it's like.

I really doubt what you say is true, about people just walking in and receiving Visa's from their consulate "automatically" ( Why are you hanging out in Consulates anyway?). It really doesn't work like that and If what your saying IS true than there is some shadiness going on and you should report it to the State Dept IG.

Also, applying for a immigrant or non-immigrant Visa is like applying to a college or rushing a GLO, just because you fill out the paper work doesn't mean you are going to fit the requirements to get in. It's not written anywhere that the U.S. has to take in everyone that applies.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Not going the absurd at all, just trying to see where you're coming from. I've heard many people seriously propose open border immigration policy, specifically for Mexico as well as completely sealing off the country and ending immigration completely.

But back to the original discussion do you support this law on the basis that this law would NOT promote illegal immigration, instead, it would most likely deter illegal immigration into the U.S?

You phrased it in the extreme, that tends to be an attempt to reduce the argument to the absurd.

I'm not sure why you think I would support this law in any way, but you phrased the question in that way.

I do not support this law because it is unconstitutional. I don't support the removal of Jus Soli from our constitution nor the alteration of it under those rules. I do not think it would actually deter illegal immigration either. This is a distraction from productive immigration reform.

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I really doubt what you say is true, about people just walking in and receiving Visa's from their consulate "automatically" ( Why are you hanging out in Consulates anyway?). It really doesn't work like that and If what your saying IS true than there is some shadiness going on and you should report it to the State Dept IG.

Also, applying for a immigrant or non-immigrant Visa is like applying to a college or rushing a GLO, just because you fill out the paper work doesn't mean you are going to fit the requirements to get in. It's not written anywhere that the U.S. has to take in everyone that applies.

There's a difference between believing that an individual's story is true and believing that it correlates to the general population. Calling someone a liar is not a productive way to have a conversation.

Applying for a Visa, in some of these countries is more like trying to buy a kidney. There's corruption, bribes, and graft. One person's story was that for just a 30 day visa they were expected to pay 130 dollars a day just to stand in line.

There's a lot wrong with our immigration policy and only if you're from Europe are you unlikely to have serious problems (because it's a much shorter line and your 7% isn't automatically used up). Hell I have a friend marrying an Indian who is hoping that he can become naturalized on his current visa just so they don't have to go through the hell that is ICE verifying your marriage is legit.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

You phrased it in the extreme, that tends to be an attempt to reduce the argument to the absurd.

I'm not sure why you think I would support this law in any way, but you phrased the question in that way.

I do not support this law because it is unconstitutional. I don't support the removal of Jus Soli from our constitution nor the alteration of it under those rules. I do not think it would actually deter illegal immigration either. This is a distraction from productive immigration reform.

I think that's up to the SCOTUS to determine if it's unconstitutional. AFAIK the citizenship of offspring of non citizens born here has never been legally challenged. This "anchor baby" bill comes up every year but always dies out as soon as it's presented. People get so worked up and emotional over immigration laws.

You had said that you were against U.S. laws that promote undocumented migration into the U.S., I get that and agree with you. I just wanted to see how you felt about laws that are "anti" illegal immigrant. You seem to be against those as well. Personally, It's not going to change my life if they change it or not. Even though it doesn't affect my personal life, it affects me professionally as I work in the field. I think it would make my job a living hell if this went through nationwide.

I never called anyone a liar, I just said that the system shouldn't work like that. I even said that if what she said was true and free of exaggeration she should report the Consulate and the employees working there.

Immigration reform is already a hot mess, and it's just going to get messier. I think if we are going to see another amnesty, it's going to come with a lot of nasty strings attached, like changes to Jus Soli.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I think that's up to the SCOTUS to determine if it's unconstitutional. AFAIK the citizenship of offspring of non citizens born here has never been legally challenged. This "anchor baby" bill comes up every year but always dies out as soon as it's presented. People get so worked up and emotional over immigration laws.

Yes, it would be up to the courts however it's been pretty much assumed to be unconstitional by everyone except those who claim that illegal immigrants are not "under the jurisdiction" of the United States.

Jus Soli has been part of the US since its founding. It was codified in the 14th amendment. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

The Supreme Court ruled in The U.S V. Wong Kim Ark
That despite the anti-Chinese laws at the time, that citizenship was granted and could not be revoked just because his parents were Chinese immigrants. At that time they ruled that the only people excluded under the "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause were children born to foriegn diplomats and children born to enemy soldiers engaged in hostile action. In addition, at the time American Indians were excluded, although this changed later.

Plyer vs. Doe ruled that illegal immigrants were considered "in the jurisdiction."

As it is also in the constitution that no state shall revoke or refuse citizenship. Therefore, I have no problem saying that this is an unconstitutional law.

You had said that you were against U.S. laws that promote undocumented migration into the U.S., I get that and agree with you. I just wanted to see how you felt about laws that are "anti" illegal immigrant. You seem to be against those as well. Personally, It's not going to change my life if they change it or not. Even though it doesn't affect my personal life, it affects me professionally as I work in the field. I think it would make my job a living hell if this went through nationwide.

Your problem is classifying laws as pro or anti illegal immigration. I am against unconstitutional laws, laws based on prejudice and laws that just plain don't fix anything. Even if this law passed I don't believe it would actually deter illegal immigration, as plenty of people come over with their children as it is and those children are not automatically granted citizenship.

I never called anyone a liar, I just said that the system shouldn't work like that. I even said that if what she said was true and free of exaggeration she should report the Consulate and the employees working there.

No you implied she was lying. You said you didn't believe her. Not that it shouldn't be like that but that it couldn't be like that. If you are ignorant of the fact that such corruption exists, then it is your responsibility to educate yourself instead of asking for proof then denying that it could be true.

Immigration reform is already a hot mess, and it's just going to get messier. I think if we are going to see another amnesty, it's going to come with a lot of nasty strings attached, like changes to Jus Soli.

And I continue to believe that our unmodified Jus Soli is part of what makes the US what it is, how it has developed historically, and who we are today. I think changing it would be unfortunate.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Listen, I never asked you to look up 100 year old immigration cases to begin with . . . .

Well, you did kinda:

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I think that's up to the SCOTUS to determine if it's unconstitutional. AFAIK the citizenship of offspring of non citizens born here has never been legally challenged.

Good luck on the cigarette front.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I really doubt what you say is true, about people just walking in and receiving Visa's from their consulate "automatically" ( Why are you hanging out in Consulates anyway?)

Dude what the fuck ever. Go ahead and call me a liar, coming from you it doesn't mean much.

Applying for a Visa, in some of these countries is more like trying to buy a kidney. There's corruption, bribes, and graft. One person's story was that for just a 30 day visa they were expected to pay 130 dollars a day just to stand in line.

Exactly.

For a friend of the family, part of the requirement to ask for a work Visa was to get letters from people from the US (i.e. citizens) to vouch for her. So tell me why she had EVERYONE in my dance group vouch for her, yet she wasn't able to get her visa approved(her alone, not even with her family).

YET, when we were standing in line (believe it or not, I actually DO travel to Mexico ) we heard about this couple that just had to pay XX amount and they got their Visa automatically (no waiting, no nothing), and now they were back to get their children visas.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by epchick

Dude what the fuck ever.

LOL.