kappa sigma at fgcu?

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

If you guys who are posting are really a part of a fraternity (or sorority, Jenny 87?), you should be ashamed of yourselves. The "system" and "rules" which you are trying to uphold are nonsensical as applied universally and that's why not one single national fraternity (whether they choose to expand often of not) supports such a position.



Now, for those of you who support this idea of limited and "systematic" expansion by the IFC, query what the broader effects are of such a policy. In other words, think about how such a policy would actually play out in the real world. What you are supporting is a system whereby fraternities race to the new campuses all across the nation, set up shop, then band together and vote to keep the other fraternities out until the ones who simply arrived first are "ready" and "healthy."

When each fraternity is ready to expand and wants to go to a new campus, then they may, regardless of who was there first. It's called the free market. The market will decide how many groups a campus will support.
The method of operation by the IFC is unsupportable by logic or in practice, which is evidenced by the fact that none of the local fraternities at FCGU have the support of their national organizations (adults who know the issues and have been around the block a time or two). Sure, you kids think you know it all now, but one day you'll grow up gain a broader perspective of how life really works and why free expansion is the only policy that makes sense.

For now, however, our fight is with FGCU, not with the IFC. We are fighting for our constitutional right to be recognized commensurate with the other fraternities on campus. For those who disagree and think that it's acceptable for a public institution to prohibit a bunch of students from exercising their rights on campus solely because some of their fellow students didn't "vote" them in, someday you will realize you're wrong. This day may come soon or it may not come until you or someone in your family is discriminated upon, but it will come. And when it does, I hope you seek out the undergraduate students whom you spent so much energy trying to keep off campus and offer your apologies for denying them the same rights you enjoyed during your college years. I don't blame you, and I don't think any of you are doing so with malice. You are simply young, uneducated, and wrong. We were all there once. One day you will open your minds, realize you are supporting an illogical and unfair system (perhaps because you've been taught that way and don't know any better), and decide to stand up for your fellow students who only seek the same rights you enjoy. I only hope that day comes sooner rather than later.

Wow. Where does one begin?

Condescending. Unfamiliar. Those are a couple of the adjectives that come to mind when reading this post.

You obviously haven't been a member of GC. The majority of us are alumns of our respective fraternities and sororities. Many of us are/have been chapter advisors to both established chapters and colonies. Many of us have either volunteered for our inter/national groups or have worked for our groups.

We understand the issues going on at FGCU. Really, we do. What it boils down to is this: Some guys didn't like the current fraternities. Did they go as a group to the Greek Life Office and say this, explaining their issues and their request to look for a new fraternity? Or, did they form a new group on their own, look around for a fraternity, liked Kappa Sigma, and contacted them? (From some earlier posts, that's the way it sounds.) Kappa Sigma talked to them, liked what they saw, and said "We'd love to have you guys as a group."

Did Kappa Sigma or the young men starting the group ever look/ask about FGCU's expansion policies before this all started? If not, that was poor planning and you got blindsided by a rule that you should have checked into.
If yes, then you saw the rule that says that unrecognized colonies/expansions could not be recognized for 5 years and decided, "To hell with it. We'll do it anyway." Either way, there is an established rule that is non-discriminatory because it does apply to any Greek organization. If they were applying it to you, and then (for example) Phi Lambda Chi is acccepted even though they had a non-recognized expansion, I can guarrantee you that you would have my full support.

I keep hearing that you have all the NIC Inter/National Offices supporting you. Well, then, they need to check the Expansion Resolution from the NIC. Especially the last section:

"To provide students with context for the benefits and lessons of expansion, the members of the Conference agree to:

*Educate their undergraduate chapters, the Interfraternity Council leaders and interested alumni about the overall benefits and responsibilities of expansion and to foster ongoing support for the growth of the fraternity movement;
*Offer only those statements and promises in expansion discussions which accurately reflect capabilities;
*Encourage the highest academic, social, and moral standards among all interested students in all expansion endeavors;
*Make every reasonable attempt to coordinate expansion efforts with the administration and with the Interfraternity Council of colleges and universities at which they are pursuing expansion opportunities;
*Recognize that the size of a member fraternity is not indicative of that member fraternity's ability to administer an expansion project at an institution;
*Respect the right of any organized collegiate group to seek a member fraternity of its choice in an effort to affiliate with that general fraternity; and
*Request approval of the appropriate college or university official before granting colony status."

^^ See that one: "Request approval of the appropriate college or university official before granting colony status." Before, not during, not after. Before.
Plain and simple.

No one here is against expansion or for discrimination. We are for properly done expansions and following rules.

And, let me say again, I really don't understand why you want support from Inter/National Offices of an Organization that you choose not to be a member.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

. . . and since none of you have any real life experience, please listen for a moment before you form your retorts.

Now, you know what happens when you assume.

Of course we all fight this perception, but the fraternity responds that even if such were true, there are less restrictive means to uphold campus structure than a complete ban on all Greeks, and that such a complete ban is unconstitutional since fraternities and sororities are protected classes called "expressive organizations" which are entitled to complete protection of the first amendment as decided by the Supreme Court in 1972.

Healy v James?

And can you provide a cite for any case holding that public colleges and universities must recognize Greek life, because I know of no such cases. Public institutions cannot prohibit membership in Greek organizations, and if Greek life is recognized, then the same rules must apply to all GLOs, but I know of no case saying that Greek life must be recognized. (Which is irrelevant here anyway, since FGCU does recognize Greek life.)

This is a legal question, not a question of fact, and so it is decided by a judge. The test applied is a balancing test weighing each groups rights, i.e., the school's interest in setting their own policies (banning all Greeks) and the fraternity's rights to exercise their first amendment rights at a public institution. (Side note, this balancing test is inapplicable at private schools, in case you were wondering. Private schools play by their own rules. Public schools, such as FGCU, are state entities funded by taxpayer monies, and have to follow the same rules as the government, i.e. they can't discriminate against student groups). The outcome usually depends upon the jurisdiction and the judges, and each jurisdiction has it's own set of factors they consider.

Are you suggesting that when First Amendment rights are at issue, various jurisdictions can apply strict scrutiny standards other than the standards adopted by the Supreme Court of the United States? Or are you just noting that states may have greater protections than those afforded by the First Amendment?

By recognizing the fraternities already on campus, but denying Kappa Sigma those same rights, FGCU is blatantly discriminating against Kappa Sigma. . . . FGCU, however, as a public institution, is legally bound to provide Kappa Sigma with the same liberties it affords to the other fraternities already on campus, which includes providing meeting space on campus. FGCU cannot infringe upon our civil liberties merely because some of the students on campus (IFC) don't want us on campus. This will be remedied, I promise you. FGCU has no legal ground to stand upon, but I can't get into it any further.

From what I can see, you are grossly overstating an equal protection analysis. If you've read the cases, you know that the expressive association of which you speak is the right to associate for the purposes protected by the First Amendment: speech, assembly, petition for the redress of grievances, and the exercise of religion.

FGCU clearly does not appear to dicriminate against Greek-letter organizations on these grounds -- the existence of fraternities and sororities at the school puts that argument to rest. Nor is Kappa Sigma being "discriminated" against because of any activity protected by the First Amendment. It's not a matter, say, of Kappa Sigma requiring a belief in God, while the school says that recognized organizations cannot exclude students on the basis of religion. Nope, from what I've seen, the Kappa Sigma colony is not being recognized because it failed/refused to follow the procedures that apply to all fraternities for colonization and recogniztion.

FGCU did provide the Kappa Sigma colony with the same liberties it provided other fraternities -- or at least it provided it with the opportunity for those liberties. If the colony is being deprived of those liberties, it appears to be due to the colony's own choices, not discrimination by FGCU. Doesn't sound like a promising equal protection or First Amendment case to me.

You are simply young, uneducated, and wrong. We were all there once.

Yep. I was indeed there once. But these days I'm a member of the United States Supreme Court Bar with 20+ years of practice in constitutional law under my belt. How about you?

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Lane Sig-

As such, in the NIC constitution, each member fraternity swears to uphold and support free expansion. Try to be educated, not just opinionated.

I went back to your 1st post and realized that I somehow skipped the part where you told me to be educated and not opinionated. Again, let me point out the last part of NIC's Expansion Resolution: *Request approval of the appropriate college or university official before granting colony status."

I suggest that before you tell someone else to "try to be educated", you educate yourself on the policies of an organization whose members you are trying to convince to support you.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Lol I love how the rules only apply to them when it is convenient. They left NIC, because they didn't agree with it's rules and policies. Now they are trying to use same rules and policies to their advantage.

[MysticCat]

I'm glad I'm having a slow day.

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

MysticCat: Not sure what you've been doing for the last 20 years, but you are confusing your constitutional law. First Amendment rights include the right to freely associate. Equal protection, on the other hand, is a Fourteenth Amendment matter. Toe separate issues, both being violated by the same act.

I'm well aware they're two seperate issues. It was your long post that seemed to confuse and conflate them.

As for the First Amendment, I wasn't confusing anything. Did you miss that when I gave the list of rights, I specifically pput them in the context of "expressive association"? I was merely quoting SCOTUS as to what that means:

Our decisions have referred to constitutionally protected "freedom of association" in two distinct senses. In one line of decisions, the Court has concluded that choices to enter into and maintain certain intimate human relationships must be secured against undue intrusion by the State because of the role of such relationships in safeguarding the individual freedom that is central to our constitutional scheme. In this respect, freedom of association receives protection as a fundamental element of personal liberty. In another set of decisions, the Court has recognized a right to associate for the purpose of engaging in those activities protected by the First Amendment -- speech, assembly, petition for the redress of grievances, and the exercise of religion. The Constitution guarantees freedom of association of this kind as an indispensable means of preserving other individual liberties.

Roberts v. United States Jaycees, 468 U.S. 609, 617-618 (1984) (emphasis added).

First Amendment Issue: As of right now, FGCU makes the argument that they aren't infringing upon our right to freely associate because they are "allowing" us to "be" on campus. In other words, they make the argument that they aren't infringing upon our rights by denying us meeting space on campus because we can technically "associate" with whomever we feel when we're out and about on school grounds, i.e., outside. This argument has been made before, and has failed. And you are right, Healy v. James, 408 U.S. 169, 183 (1972), holding that "there can be no doubt that denial of official recognition, without justification, to college organizations burdens of abridges that associational right. The primary impediment to free association flowing from nonrecognition is the denial of use of campus facilities for meetings and other appropriate purposes."

You do understand that Healy had to do with political speech? (Meanwhile, the BSA case involved religion and whether the BSA could limit membership to those who believe in God.) See my cite to Roberts above.

Here at FGCU, and this is where the 14th Amendment equal protection analysis comes into play, FGCU provides certain fraternities with campus facilities for meetings on campus, but is denying us that right. Thus, in one fell swoop they are infringing upon our 1st Amendment rights, and at the same time, by providing other fraternities with those rights, discriminating against us in violation of equal protection laws.

So far, FGCU has failed to articulate any legal justification for excluding us from usage of campus facilities.

I thought it was recognition you want, not just use of facilities.

Thus, MysticCat, as you can see (and this is not a shot at you) I am not grossly overstating the rights of expressive organizations. Were FGCU to ban all Greek life, they'd actually have a stronger legal argument than they do now. However, by recognizing certain groups, FGCU is legally bound to afford all student groups with the same opportunities.

The Fourteenth Amendment prohibits the school from treating similarly situated entities differently. Since nothing you have said has shown me that the Kappa Sig colony is similarly situated to the IFC chapters that actually followed the procedure for recognition, it still looks like you're overstating things to me.

But I'll give you this: you're managing to do it in a particularly condescending and arrogant way. Props for that. Perhaps you're on the right track after all and I just can't see it for all the hubris.

[33girl]

KSigAdvisor, you are a fucking idiot.

No school has to grant ANY group recognition. The only thing that freedom of assocation protects is the right of students to join any group - recognized or unrecognized - without fear of harassment/suspension/expulsion.

As a matter of fact, your argument is really AGAINST freedom of association - as you want to "force" FGCU and its students to accept an organization that they have shown, in a vote, that they do not want. Even if FGCU had approved you, the IFC could still vote you down.

You don't have a leg to stand on as far as equal protection until another fraternity comes in and the school recognizes them immediately.

DKE dealt with things like this for a long time, at many schools, and without the whining. I suggest you google them and learn something.

May I reiterate: you are a fucking idiot. (And longwinded, too.)

[knight_shadow]

MC, 33girl, and LaneSig FTMFW

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

LaneSig: Where do I begin? Your quoted section from the NIC Expansion Resolution states "request" approval. Should your fraternity decide not to pursue its rights when a public institution denies your approval "request," then that is your right to tuck tail and run. Seriously, no qualms with your organization only wanting to expand where a university grants approval, because it is a tough fight. To each his own. However, Kappa Sigma does not tuck tail and run. We stand up for our First Amendment rights and take these institutions head on. To do otherwise is a gross violation of what our founding fathers fought so hard for in establishing this great country. The Constitution protects all of us from the idea that a university (or any governmental entity) may take taxpayer money, construct some buildings, and then deny citizens their civil rights. I take my obligation to stand up for our freedoms seriously. You obviously see it a different way. Thank goodness others throughout history, such as women and African Americans, when being denied the right to vote because those were the "rules," didn't roll over and go home. The fact that you discourage courage is a disservice to your members. Again, operate how you will, to each his own, but I see it as cowardice. Call me crazy, but I detest discriminatory practices under the guise of "those are the rules." We made the "request" in November of 2008, and were denied by FGCU. That denial, as we see it, is a violation of our rights, and we are standing up for our rights accordingly.

Seriously? You are now comparing an unrecognized Kappa Sigma colony to the struggle of African Americans and women to get their civil rights. Wow. Just, wow.

I can assure you that Sigma Chi does not just "roll over and go home" when we face a problem.

What we do is make sure we know the atmosphere of the campus. We make sure that we have the full cooperation of the administration before anything happens. We make sure that all the "t"s are crossed and the "i"s dotted. That way, there is no problem.

You requested to come on and colonize in 2008? Is this Kappa Sigma the organization or the group that became Kappa Sigma?

2 Scenerios:
Kappa Sigma organization the organization was asked to wait and had 2 choices: Say, "Okay, we're grownups and are willing to wait and work with FGCU until something can work." Or, "To hell with you and your request and rules. We'll colonize anyway. We realize that this will bring disharmony between our organization and the administration. But, we don't care! This is just like Patrick Henry. Give us our toga parties or give us death!"

Or,
A group of students didn't read the rules, made their group, contacted Kappa Sigma. Kappa Sigma didn't read the rules, found out too late, and is now facing an uphill battle instead of welcoming arms, because you didn't read the rules.

Which is it?

BTW - 33girl- I wish we were back in college. I would definately serenade you with "The Sweetheart of Sigma Chi" song on ASA's front porch.

[ForeverRoses]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'm glad I'm having a slow day.

I must say that I am glad you are having a slow day. This thread has been fun to lurk in- although I'll take the "you're just young" part as a complement.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by 33girl

you are a fucking idiot.



May I reiterate: you are a fucking idiot.

Because it just had to be said again.

[FSUZeta]

"2 Scenerios:
Kappa Sigma organization the organization was asked to wait and had 2 choices: Say, "Okay, we're grownups and are willing to wait and work with FGCU until something can work." Or, "To hell with you and your request and rules. We'll colonize anyway. We realize that this will bring disharmony between our organization and the administration. But, we don't care! This is just like Patrick Henry. Give us our toga parties or give us death!"

Or,
A group of students didn't read the rules, made their group, contacted Kappa Sigma. Kappa Sigma didn't read the rules, found out too late, and is now facing an uphill battle instead of welcoming arms, because you didn't read the rules." LaneSig

from what i hear, it was a combination of the two.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

As for you, LaneSig, I believe in complete disclosure and and factual accuracy, so here's what went down: A group of students wanted to start a fraternity and contacted us. We then sent in one of our staff members to meet with FGCU. FGCU informed us that they "weren't open for expansion" and that IFC only "invites" fraternities to come onto campus every year or so. We thought Fort Myers was in the United States of America, so we respectfully said we are coming anyway. For those who keep arguing that at this point we should have respected the university's wishes, you are missing the point.


Vote us down?? What world did you wake up in this morning??! Students get to decide what other students can and can't do???! Other groups can "vote us down" because they don't want us on campus? I've never heard of anything dumber in my entire life.

The IFC can't "vote off" the Catholic student association, the Polo club, or any other group any more than they can vote of the Kappa Sigma Fraternity. Just like those other groups, we don't have to be a part of "IFC" to be a student organization.

So, you did know about the rule, but went ahead and did it anyway.

BTW-Does Kappa Sigma allow anyone to join a chapter? No? Your members within the chapters vote who to allow and who not to allow? Why, that's discrimination! You shouldn't keep out people who want to join your chapters. That's infringing on their Constitutional right of these non-members to have the freedom to associate with your members, whether your members want them to or not. You have to allow them to join. It's their right.

[knight_shadow]

^^^ You really are an idiot. <---directed at KSigAdvisor

If you really feel your rights have been violated, take it up with the courts. I'm sure MC will represent you, once his mind is up and running again

BTW -- if you're an undergrad, how are you an advisor?

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

but stupid people anger me.

So you must be really pissed at yourself

Telling a group of students they can't organize and function on campus is not a rule, it's discrimination. We (the undergraduate students) have the same rights as every other students.

You have the same rights, and have to follow the same rules as everybody else.

MysticCat, it sounds like maybe slow days are normal for you, cognitively speaking. We don't need recognition from the other fraternities to operate on campus. "Recognition" is the name for the rights that come therewith, i.e., use of campus facilities. We seek "recognition" from FGCU, because they are a state actor and must provide student organizations with certain rights such as use of university facilities. We don't seek anything from IFC anymore.

Actually they don't. Freedom of association is not the same as saying that if an organization asks for something, it has to be granted. It just means that an individual can't be punished for who they associate with, or groups they join.

"Recognition" by the IFC has zero effect on whether FGCU "recognizes" us as a student organization just like it does every other student organization.

Actually, I'm sure every organization needs some kind of recognition process they have to go through. Since fraternities are by their very nature discriminatory, IFC has to approve, instead of the office of student involvement who would normally be the case.

If 10 other student groups decided to form a group of representatives and that group "voted" your group off campus, what would you say?

It's called a student government. And there is nothing to say that people can not join Kappa Sigma, or will get punished for it.

I think there is more to your mention of the Hitler Corps than I originally thought 33Girl, because you support blatantly communist principles.

You are calling all of us idiots, yet you don't know the difference between Communism and Fascism/Nazism? Newsflash, but Hitler hated the Communists .

The IFC can't "vote off" the Catholic student association, the Polo club, or any other group any more than they can vote of the Kappa Sigma Fraternity. Just like those other groups, we don't have to be a part of "IFC" to be a student organization.

No they can't, because those groups aren't GLOs. However, I'm sure they have to be recognized by somebody before the school would give support to them. The school has very limited resources. As such, they will not use those resources unless they know that the students support said group.

If you can get over my insults, MysticCat, the ones that I'm entitled to because your groups voted to keep us out of IFC, then please expand upon your following comment:

So you say you have the right to call somebody an idiot, because members of their group that they might not even know voted against you? Even if that was true, Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia is not at FGCU or even in NIC.

Why are we not similarly situated? Because FGCU invented an unconstitutional and discriminatory rule that we chose to fight? I wuold like to see you articulate a defense to that catch 22. "You can't come on campus, and if you choose to anyway, then we can discriminate against you, because we told you not to in the first place." That's not a rule, that's discrimination.

You are an idiot. That is like saying that putting people in jail because they broke the law is discrimination.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

BTW - 33girl- I wish we were back in college. I would definately serenade you with "The Sweetheart of Sigma Chi" song on ASA's front porch.

You have NO idea how much I needed that today. Missing the Sigma Chi boys badly...

And to segue, I have to say that everything LaneSig says is true. Sigma Chi is attempting to return to my campus and they are doing an AMAZING amount of homework as far as making sure the campus is ready for it, enlisting alumni, telling alumni in no uncertain terms what they're signing on for, getting their name out to the campus Greek community etc etc.

BTW, KSig"Advisor" (because I hope to hell you really are not this chapter's advisor), I haven't had a boy call me a stupid drunk so much in a long time. It's kind of giving me a lady boner.