Who benefited from the No Child Left Behind?

[ASUADPi]

NCLB, AYP and AZ Learns are the reason I'm getting out of education. NCLB is a crock of "bleep". It is an unfunded and retarded mandate. I'm sorry, even if the stupid thing was funded, it would still be a crock. There are some amazing teachers out there (and there are some who just need to get out of the profession all together), but it doesn't matter how great the teacher is, some kids WILL NEVER be at grade level!!! To expect a special needs child with an IQ of 75 to take and PASS a test at GRADE LEVEL is asinine. Right now the kids aren't 'required" to pass but to take and have a score, but that will eventually go the way of the dinosaur as the whole point of NCLB is to have "all kids to grade level by 2013, which is a another crock of crap in itself).

There are lawsuits going on in AZ right now because our stupid superintendent of public instruction (who has never set foot in a classroom in his life!) is wanting to change the "law" so that those kids who do have an IEP and don't "pass" AIMS (our state high stakes testing needed for graduation), it will "say so" on their frickin diploma!! Talk about truly labeling a child!

I got so tired of the crap associated with everything. I spent more time "teaching" for some stupid district assessment or state assessment that I rarely did anything interesting or even remotely fun with my students. No wonder kids hate school now! Plus, how does it really show how "smart" my kids are in the first place? Prior to my kids taking the 3rd grade AIMS (in 2008), I spent like a month doing practice AIMS (which had the same standards and essentially very similiar questions).

I "taught" them how to "take" the stupid test. You know why I did this? Because whether I'm considered a "good" teacher or "not" is based on those stupid scores! They don't care about their work in class, their grades in class, their progress monitoring or DIBELS scores, all they (the district, state, government) care about is AIMS (or any other high stakes test). Yes, most "good" teachers actually have their students do well, but I worked in a low income district, where I would say 80% of the students were hispanic and of that 80%, 60% were monolingual English and of that 60% I would say 40-50% were illegal. You do the math on how well most of the kids in this district do on state high stakes tests!

Education has become more and more political due to NCLB and quite honestly it has taken the fun out of teaching and I think out of learning. Yes, there were problems in education when I was a kid, but I graduated from high school, went to college, got a Bachelors and even a masters degree. I have owned two homes, own my car, I'm pretty sure I turned out okay based on the education I got as a child. My parents are highly educated (mom has two masters, going for her 3rd, dad is working on his masters), I'm sure they turned out okay and education was so much more different when they were kids.

Okay, I'm totally rambling now and I'm not sure I'm making any sense so I'm going to "shut up". LOL.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by ASUADPi

Yes, most "good" teachers actually have their students do well, but I worked in a low income district, where I would say 80% of the students were hispanic and of that 80%, 60% were monolingual English and of that 60% I would say 40-50% were illegal. You do the math on how well most of the kids in this district do on state high stakes tests!

Welcome to my whole city And they wonder why El Paso doesn't perform as well as other cities in Texas. Well shiiit, if my HS didn't have enough money to buy protractors for every student in every geometry class (my school only had 1000 kids in it anyways) BEFORE NCLB, why would they have enough money after NCLB? Especially when making AYP determines whether you get federal funding or not.



Something to consider....abiding by NCLB and all that comes with it is NOT mandatory. You don't have to follow what the federal government (or even the state government) says, but if you schools/school districts choose not to follow them, then they get NO funding whatsoever. If every school district in the nation decided to stop following NCLB, and teach the way teachers are suppose to think, (so essentially it's a boycott) do you think that would be enough of a clue for our administration to reconsider NCLB?


ETA: Why are you all still engaging gamma/MM? Just ignore him, and let him rot.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by ASUADPi

Okay, I'm totally rambling now and I'm not sure I'm making any sense so I'm going to "shut up". LOL.

Maybe if you'd spent all summer on a lesson plan . . . oh, the lament.

I get where you're saying, but the kids we're using as the "problem" are a niche. Maybe there are quite a few in your school (or El Paso), but that's not a massive, overwhelming issue - so why do teachers, on a massive, overwhelming level, hate the program? There's a disconnect between the anger and the rationale, and I find it very interesting.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Maybe if you'd spent all summer on a lesson plan . . . oh, the lament.

I get where you're saying, but the kids we're using as the "problem" are a niche. Maybe there are quite a few in your school (or El Paso), but that's not a massive, overwhelming issue - so why do teachers, on a massive, overwhelming level, hate the program? There's a disconnect between the anger and the rationale, and I find it very interesting.

I'm not a teacher, but I'll hazard a guess that the teachers feel threatened that they are being assessed on the children's performances on one test when, no matter how good a teacher they may be, there are many other factors that determine how successful a child is on said test, including all the other teachers that have ever taught that child! Should an 8th grade math teacher be judged on how their students do on this test when, in reality, the child has been behind in their math skills since 1st grade?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I'm not a teacher, but I'll hazard a guess that the teachers feel threatened that they are being assessed on the children's performances on one test when, no matter how good a teacher they may be, there are many other factors that determine how successful a child is on said test, including all the other teachers that have ever taught that child! Should an 8th grade math teacher be judged on how their students do on this test when, in reality, the child has been behind in their math skills since 1st grade?

But it's typically not one kid; it's all your kids. And most evaluators are very aware of what particular teachers do and who they teach. Sure, you may superficially look bad to have all the failures, but if you teach all the learning disabled kids, anyone with any sense knows that your kids aren't like the other kids by definition.

And, unless I've missed something major, NCLB doesn't really require that anyone do anything to teachers based on the results of the test. If that's going on, it's an example of a local or state policy that the district is blaming on NCLB.

NCLB is basically being scapegoated for everything going on educationally that people don't like. Not all of it, and I'd even say a majority of what we hear about, isn't in NCLB itself and may only be loosely connected to it.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I'm not a teacher, but I'll hazard a guess that the teachers feel threatened that they are being assessed on the children's performances on one test when, no matter how good a teacher they may be, there are many other factors that determine how successful a child is on said test, including all the other teachers that have ever taught that child! Should an 8th grade math teacher be judged on how their students do on this test when, in reality, the child has been behind in their math skills since 1st grade?

So the problem isn't the teacher, it's the teacherS? I'm much happier with that analysis than the demonizing of a set of standards (with the subtext of complaining about being judged based on performance, as happens in every other professional field).

It just seems like we speak in absolutes and platitudes when discussing NCLB - if the family has such a big influence on kids that they become essentially unteachable, why even have schools? If the previous teachers sucked that badly, shouldn't that be borne out in the data? If SpEd and ESL students are such a drag on the numbers, why are they included and/or why aren't these individuals placed in a location that can be fairly judged against standards (i.e. another program/school)?

This seems so eminently fixable that it sucks to hear about how much it, well, sucks. I've long held that the problems in education (ranging from teacher pay to classroom size) are largely a function of bloated and ineffective administration - is that, combined with legislative inertia, enough to remove our ability to enact seemingly straightforward standards?

[epchick]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

If SpEd and ESL students are such a drag on the numbers, why are they included and/or why aren't these individuals placed in a location that can be fairly judged against standards (i.e. another program/school)?

Because the government, per NCLB, want them included. They can't segregate the special needs kids (well the ones that can function on their own), it's what is called "inclusion." Once they get to certain grade, they are put into a 'normal' classroom, whether they are ready or not. It's why my legally deaf cousin, is part of a normal 3rd grade monolingual class. It's called "inclusion." So he'll be taking the same TAKS test (Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills) that all the other 3rd graders take. It doesn't help that his teacher doesn't know how to teach him and because he's already been put into the "normal" class, he doesn't get his special ed classes anymore.

His test will be the same, except he won't have the field questions (i.e. the questions that are meant to be so difficult that the kids can't pass that question---but they aren't included in the final score).

Really unless you are a teacher, you won't really 'get' why there is so much hostility towards NCLB. It is a good system, in theory, but it hasn't been implemented properly.


ETA:

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

And, unless I've missed something major, NCLB doesn't really require that anyone do anything to teachers based on the results of the test.

That's actually not true. NCLB may not be directly responsible for it, but there are consequences if schools don't meet AYP. If a school doesn't meet AYP, they get put on a growth plan (like i mentioned earlier). If after the 5th year, a school doesn't meet AYP (in any area) then the school will be taken over by the "government." It will be up to them what would happen to the teachers..they could keep them, dismiss them all, or just dismiss some of them.

That has been something that has been in place since the beginning of NCLB. I never had to take the TAKS (the TAKS started the year after me) but even then I heard that if the students didn't pass the TAKS, then teachers could be fired.

Like I mentioned before, there is one school in this area that is on their 5th year not meeting AYP's graduation rate (and we've already talked about that). If they don't bring up their graduation rate, then the school will be taken over.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by epchick

Because the government, per NCLB, want them included. They can't segregate the special needs kids (well the ones that can function on their own), it's what is called "inclusion." Once they get to certain grade, they are put into a 'normal' classroom, whether they are ready or not. It's why my legally deaf cousin, is part of a normal 3rd grade monolingual class. It's called "inclusion." So he'll be taking the same TAKS test (Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills) that all the other 3rd graders take. It doesn't help that his teacher doesn't know how to teach him and because he's already been put into the "normal" class, he doesn't get his special ed classes anymore.

His test will be the same, except he won't have the field questions (i.e. the questions that are meant to be so difficult that the kids can't pass that question---but they aren't included in the final score).

Ah, OK - so it's the high-functioning children, who would still ordinarily qualify for Special Education classes?

Also, if he's legally deaf, does he get a sign interpreter? Does he read lips? What's his retention rate? It seems odd they'd throw a deaf kid into class to just sit there and watch.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Also, if he's legally deaf, does he get a sign interpreter? Does he read lips? What's his retention rate? It seems odd they'd throw a deaf kid into class to just sit there and watch.

Long story short: because he can barely hear out of one ear--he's not "deaf enough" to need anything else but hearing aids which, after his big fall last year, don't work very well anymore. The teacher uses an FM trainer which is just a microphone she wears to amplify her voice. It works well at times, but this teacher has gotten into the habit of speaking too fast and moving through the material too quickly. My aunt has gone to talk to her numerous times, and the teacher supposedly is aware of what she is doing and always promises to fix it....but she never does. They've taken a few benchmark tests (they are like practice tests to gauge how the students are doing) and he's scored EXTREMELY low (but apparently not enough to be worried?)

If there is a substitute, well forget the FM trainer being used (some subs have refused to use it, some say they "prefer not to"). So whatever lesson is being taught for that day, pretty much is useless to him because unless the sub spends some time with him, my cousin isn't gonna learn crap from that day.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by epchick

Really unless you are a teacher, you won't really 'get' why there is so much hostility towards NCLB. It is a good system, in theory, but it hasn't been implemented properly.


ETA:

That's actually not true. NCLB may not be directly responsible for it, but there are consequences if schools don't meet AYP. If a school doesn't meet AYP, they get put on a growth plan (like i mentioned earlier). If after the 5th year, a school doesn't meet AYP (in any area) then the school will be taken over by the "government." It will be up to them what would happen to the teachers..they could keep them, dismiss them all, or just dismiss some of them.

That has been something that has been in place since the beginning of NCLB. I never had to take the TAKS (the TAKS started the year after me) but even then I heard that if the students didn't pass the TAKS, then teachers could be fired.

Like I mentioned before, there is one school in this area that is on their 5th year not meeting AYP's graduation rate (and we've already talked about that). If they don't bring up their graduation rate, then the school will be taken over.

All the examples mentioned about outcomes for individual teachers are things the district COULD do, but they aren't things required by NCLB. There's nothing that requires that teachers from reorganized schools will be terminated, and honestly, I don't expect them to, especially if they are performing in the average or above range for the particular kids they serve. And in my experience, principals and districts know who teaches classes with more kids less likely to do well since in practice most places, they aren't equally distributed. If the particular teacher is performing worse that other teachers with comparable kids year after year, then he or she probably should be evaluated accordingly.

Districts taking tests scores seriously may be a product of NCLB, but how they respond to those test results is pretty much still up to them and I think anyone would be hard pressed to find examples of teachers getting fired for their special education students' performance. Pressured? Sure. Compelled to attend ridiculous time consuming meetings that do nothing to increase student performance, sure. But actually formally evaluated in a way detrimental to their careers, not so much.

And the thing about any special ed issues is that you kind of have to ask if special education STUDENTS were actually receiving better academic instruction before they counted in the data this much. If we're honest with ourselves, I think it's pretty clear that they weren't. They were much more likely to be in programs that didn't really push them very much academically, especially if they had parents who the district wasn't worried would sue. The present system may judge schools for their performance in a kind of unfair way, but I think the cases where it harms the kid are outnumbered by the benefits to kids who receive much more targeted academic instruction.

I'm not saying NCLB is flawless certainly, but it isn't really the great ruin of public education the way some educators and parents would make it out to be.