Private Pool Bans Minority Campers

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

You don't actually believe that do you? If that really was the case, do you really think there would still be all-white country clubs and other private clubs? That really is a rather naive sentiment you have expressed there. Business doesn't always flounder for businesses that discriminate against blacks. And there are people who don't mind being associated with that. Billy Graham was a member of an all-white country club for years. Clearly he had no problem with it.

I really don't have a problem with all-white country clubs. If I played golf, I might even belong to one. Diversity wouldn't be on my list of things I care about either way. I'm more interested in the facilities and the membership.

Membership requirements for those clubs vary. Usually, you have to get a sponsor, usually, the shareholders have to vote and typically, the vote requirement is very high... at least that's the case for country clubs with any sort of prestige attached to them. The view at these sorts of places is pretty simple -- they don't discriminate based upon race, they just haven't had a subjectively qualified person of color apply. That might sound like a fiction to you, but really, do you think minorities are even applying?

You might have a case if Colin Powell gets turned down for membership somewhere, but that hasn't happened.

There are highly selective black organizations out there such as Jack and Jill. They don't admit whites (as far as I know) and that's just fine with everyone. Their racial requirements are express, unlike country clubs where you have a circumstantial case at best for racially based exclusions. And in J&J's case, you don't have whites banging down the door for admission either.

Now, when one of these organizations admits a black person and then turns around and boots them because they're "changing the complexion," we'd have a serious problem. I suppose the difference is superficial, but real. People will belong to these organizations so long as the organizations help these people to achieve what they want to achieve.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I really don't have a problem with all-white country clubs. If I played golf, I might even belong to one. Diversity wouldn't be on my list of things I care about either way. I'm more interested in the facilities and the membership.

Membership requirements for those clubs vary. Usually, you have to get a sponsor, usually, the shareholders have to vote and typically, the vote requirement is very high... at least that's the case for country clubs with any sort of prestige attached to them.

As the significant other of an avid golfer (who is Black, as am I), this has definitely been our experience. Many of the clubs that were once exclusively white, including those that intentionally excluded nonwhites, now have Black members. These Black members were mostly sponsored by white members and are professionals who are of the upper social class designation of the existing members.

Originally Posted by Kevin

The view at these sorts of places is pretty simple -- they don't discriminate based upon race, they just haven't had a subjectively qualified person of color apply. That might sound like a fiction to you, but really, do you think minorities are even applying?

In general, minorities aren't flooding the gates however it is not true that none of these clubs intentionally discriminated based on race. More clubs are allowing sprinkles of nonwhites but there is still a racial tipping point in some of these clubs as there is in predominantly white neigbhorhoods.

[Taualumna]

Maybe I come from a very different environment, but I personally would have issues with country clubs which admit only one race. I don't know about where you're from, Kevin, but there are a lot of non-whites up here who'd be wonderful candidates at exclusive clubs. Many are already members. Say you're a wealthy businessperson from Singapore. You've had a foreign education since middle school (prep school in the US, followed by two degrees, each from an Ivy). You go home to work a few years, establish yourself and then go to the US...permanently. You're an avid golfer. You'd like to join the club in your town, and your accomplishments, connections, etc would make you a likely candidate....except for one thing....you're Asian.

Kevin, have you met someone like this? And what about someone from Asia who belongs to a recipricol club?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Taualumna

Maybe I come from a very different environment, but I personally would have issues with country clubs which admit only one race. I don't know about where you're from, Kevin, but there are a lot of non-whites up here who'd be wonderful candidates at exclusive clubs. Many are already members. Say you're a wealthy businessperson from Singapore. You've had a foreign education since middle school (prep school in the US, followed by two degrees, each from an Ivy). You go home to work a few years, establish yourself and then go to the US...permanently. You're an avid golfer. You'd like to join the club in your town, and your accomplishments, connections, etc would make you a likely candidate....except for one thing....you're Asian.

Kevin, have you met someone like this? And what about someone from Asia who belongs to a recipricol club?

With all the minorities in America, why does it have to go international? LOL

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

With all the minorities in America, why does it have to go international? LOL

Where I come from, non-white country/social club members are either foreign-raised or first generation Canadian-born (and the first generation Canadian-born people are almost all under 40 and many grew up in the club - they would not have seeked membership themselves or have been recruited). Typically, they are East or South Asian.

ETA: You also have to take into consideration WHICH minorities are more likely to seek membership, too.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Membership requirements for those clubs vary. Usually, you have to get a sponsor, usually, the shareholders have to vote and typically, the vote requirement is very high... at least that's the case for country clubs with any sort of prestige attached to them. The view at these sorts of places is pretty simple -- they don't discriminate based upon race, they just haven't had a subjectively qualified person of color apply. That might sound like a fiction to you, but really, do you think minorities are even applying?



.

The ignorance behind this statement is...staggering.

Yes, minorities are applying. We just don't often hear about them getting turned away because they may not be well known.

We only would hear about Colin Powell because he is famous.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

The ignorance behind this statement is...staggering.

Yes, minorities are applying. We just don't often hear about them getting turned away because they may not be well known.

We only would hear about Colin Powell because he is famous.

What he's essentially saying is that those relatively few Blacks who are turned away could be turned away on a legit basis. They could be in the same boat as the whites who are turned away, since there are more whites who are turned away to mirror the larger proportion of whites who apply.

This is why this type of thing is difficult to "prove" so it gets swept under the rug. Suffice it to say that there are clubs that have had discriminatory rules on the books and discriminatory practices that aren't on the books. I believe some of these rules and practices have been documented years ago.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

The ignorance behind this statement is...staggering.

Yes, minorities are applying. We just don't often hear about them getting turned away because they may not be well known.

We only would hear about Colin Powell because he is famous.

Why is it staggering? How do you know? You don't.

You simply assume that if a person of color applies to a country club and is rejected, it was because of race. You don't know that to be true. It could be because no one knows the person's family. It could be because of some professional squabble. Could be anything. But for whatever reason, you hone in on race. Not everything is about race.

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Why is it staggering? How do you know? You don't.

You simply assume that if a person of color applies to a country club and is rejected, it was because of race. You don't know that to be true. It could be because no one knows the person's family. It could be because of some professional squabble. Could be anything. But for whatever reason, you hone in on race. Not everything is about race.

That is true, but for non-white people, there is the addition of race. I do agree that often, it's because he/she doesn't have the necessary connections.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Why is it staggering? How do you know? You don't.

You simply assume that if a person of color applies to a country club and is rejected, it was because of race. You don't know that to be true. It could be because no one knows the person's family. It could be because of some professional squabble. Could be anything. But for whatever reason, you hone in on race. Not everything is about race.

Beyond this, I'm sure there are some number of clubs that are systematically finding excuses to reject black members. I'm sure there are proportionally more that have a higher bar for black members than white members, or have dabbled in "tokenism" or other similar behavior.

We have simply no idea of how to separate these instances from the larger whole, and the fallback position of the club (essentially, "we make the rules and he's not good enough") is practically unassailable.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Beyond this, I'm sure there are some number of clubs that are systematically finding excuses to reject black members. I'm sure there are proportionally more that have a higher bar for black members than white members, or have dabbled in "tokenism" or other similar behavior.

We have simply no idea of how to separate these instances from the larger whole, and the fallback position of the club (essentially, "we make the rules and he's not good enough") is practically unassailable.

I don't doubt that either. The same could probably be said for fraternities and sororities at some schools.

And there's no way to fight the practice except to hope it goes away on its own. I think that eventually it will.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Why is it staggering? How do you know? You don't.

You simply assume that if a person of color applies to a country club and is rejected, it was because of race. You don't know that to be true. It could be because no one knows the person's family. It could be because of some professional squabble. Could be anything. But for whatever reason, you hone in on race. Not everything is about race.

But as a person of color, you don't know if is NOT true... How come my family has to be judged to join a recreational facility? How come my career interactions have to come into play when requesting joining? It could be anything and it could be honed into race...

You are right, true, not everything is about race... At the same time, people of color who want to join these locations are not thinking that their race would be a factor in their joining, either...

But something as a blatant disregard to taking nearly ~$2000 of an inner city's organization's money where they find a way swim is not the time to have "hissy fit" about the activity. As, I understand it, if some of the club members felt that way about children, they needed to voice their opinions to the owners well beyond taking the contracted money rather than say it directly to the children...

I have been kicked out of a pool because I was Black in Alabama in the early 1980's. So I actually do know how these kids feel. And for someone like me to enjoy the water like I do, like a fish, it was painful to have to undergo that humiliation as a child.

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

But as a person of color, you don't know if is NOT true... How come my family has to be judged to join a recreational facility? How come my career interactions have to come into play when requesting joining? It could be anything and it could be honed into race...

You are right, true, not everything is about race... At the same time, people of color who want to join these locations are not thinking that their race would be a factor in their joining, either...

But something as a blatant disregard to taking nearly ~$2000 of an inner city's organization's money where they find a way swim is not the time to have "hissy fit" about the activity. As, I understand it, if some of the club members felt that way about children, they needed to voice their opinions to the owners well beyond taking the contracted money rather than say it directly to the children...

I have been kicked out of a pool because I was Black in Alabama in the early 1980's. So I actually do know how these kids feel. And for someone like me to enjoy the water like I do, like a fish, it was painful to have to undergo that humiliation as a child.

Doesn't every family have to go through an application process, including interview and reference letters for most country/yacht/social clubs? I thought that was the normal process???

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Taualumna

Doesn't every family have to go through an application process, including interview and reference letters for most country/yacht/social clubs? I thought that was the normal process???

Why in the United States? I know the ability to pay is questioned because you do have groundkeeping/docking/mooring fees. But as far as references for country/yacht, I am not a member, and I would not want to be a member. But, some people of family are due to their professional statures.

[Taualumna]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Why in the United States? I know the ability to pay is questioned because you do have groundkeeping/docking/mooring fees. But as far as references for country/yacht, I am not a member, and I would not want to be a member. But, some people of family are due to their professional statures.

But it's not only about the ability to pay. It's about fit as well. Do you want Britney Spears as a member in a club (well, back in her crazy days, anyway)? Britney may be in the spotlight, but there are people LIKE her who aren't. And yes, someone can write a bad ref letter for you.