Prop 8 Nov. 15 Protest

[agzg]

That Holocaust argument is really bothering me.

The Jews, Catholics, Homosexuals, Gypsies, etc., were all rounded up and persecuted. Not only them, but people who helped them, or liked them, sometimes people that were really only neighbors. Poles were persecuted, just by nature of being from Poland. Why does everyone forget this stuff?

Just because there are some logical fallacies involved in comparing separate but equal for Blacks/Whites, does not mean that it is not the most appropriate comparison to the Gay Marriage issue.

Unless the next step is not only to deny marriage rights, but then to round up all the Gays, friends of Gays, neighbors of Gays, people that know Gays, people that employ Gays, etc, then just to make a topper on it, people with red hair, and throw them in the gas chamber.

The two are not really comparable. Add on top of that that the Holocaust was a European experience (yes I know that many Americans were affected by it, but after the fact or they left before it happened), while the Black/White issue, as it's being discussed here, was an American experience.

Perhaps a closer comparison might lie in the Japanese internment camps. Except we're not rounding up every homosexual and making them live in camps because we're afraid of espionage.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

That Holocaust argument is really bothering me.

Good. Now you know how I feel when people try to make comparisons of gay rights with Black American struggle for civil rights - there is no comparison.

But, if the gay rights issue wants to align themselves with other people who have been persecuted, then why not the Jews too? Why not American Indians? Why not the Japanese in the US during WWII?

If gays feel that they are being maligned for what ever reason, then I don't think they should just base their argument on one group. There are plenty other groups out there too.

So, instead of just showing a White only / Black only water fountain, why not depict Jews being rounded up a forced to live in one area, and the same for American Indians.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

If gays feel that they are being maligned for what ever reason, then I don't think they should just base their argument on one group.

Since you seem to keep refusing read the memo, I'll say it one more time. They aren't.

And to be clear, they're not basing any arguments on any "groups." They are comparing what they see as current injustices and discriminations to past injustices and discriminations.

So, instead of just showing a White only / Black only water fountain, why not depict Jews being rounded up a forced to live in one area, and the same for American Indians.

Because the separate-but-equal accomodations reference (made by a straight poster) is much more analogous to the issue at hand than is forcing people to live in ghettos or reservations.

[OtterXO]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Good. Now you know how I feel when people try to make comparisons of gay rights with Black American struggle for civil rights - there is no comparison.

But, if the gay rights issue wants to align themselves with other people who have been persecuted, then why not the Jews too? Why not American Indians? Why not the Japanese in the US during WWII?

If gays feel that they are being maligned for what ever reason, then I don't think they should just base their argument on one group. There are plenty other groups out there too.

So, instead of just showing a White only / Black only water fountain, why not depict Jews being rounded up a forced to live in one area, and the same for American Indians.

This is just driving me nuts reading some of these posts. The gay community and the people in this thread are not "aligning" themselves with anyone. We were having a discussion comparing past situations where one group was discriminated against to the current situation regarding gay marriage. No one is saying that the gay marriage issue is more horrible or less horrible than any past injustice to ANY group of people. You can't jump in and say "well it's not as bad as _____ so don't compare the two." Comparing doesn't mean equalizing the situations, it's about having a discussion about mistakes in history and learning what we can from them. But then again, this has been said NUMEROUS times in the past several pages of this thread but none of it seemed to make an impact.

[sigmadiva]

Well then maybe KSigRC should have selected a different / "better" image than he did to make his point.

[OtterXO]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Well then maybe KSigRC should have selected a different / "better" image than he did to make his point.

But that's just the point, he didn't have to select a "better" image. He used it as an example of what he thinks the logic is behind the civil union vs. marriage debate. It's the same logic, NOT the same issue.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Well then maybe KSigRC should have selected a different / "better" image than he did to make his point.

You're seriously ignoring every subsequent post?

Tell you what - you come up with a substantive rejoinder to anything I've posted (instead of simply quoting "agree to disagree"), complete with an analysis of how the following analogy is suspect:

The term "civil union" : the status of "married" :: the concept of "separate" : the reality of "equal"

. . . and I'll reconsider. Remember - the argument has nothing to do with scale, only with logic and the lessons we all should have learned from mistreatment of blacks for centuries.

Again, this isn't about "worse" - this is about human rights. You'd think those who consider themselves the "worst" off would be interested in helping others who are suffering, but apparently my ideas of empathy are awkwardly wrong. I guess I learned something today.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Good. Now you know how I feel when people try to make comparisons of gay rights with Black American struggle for civil rights - there is no comparison.

But there is a comparison, a DIRECT comparison- they both fought/are fighting for a basic human RIGHT.