No communion for Obama supporters

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Pro-choice - what choice? One from column A, one from column B? Beef or chicken? Pepsi or Coke?

It might just be because I'm tired, but the first thing I thought after reading this was "She forgot 'chicken or fish'."

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

The only two choices are NOT have an legal abortion, or die in a botched illegal one.

I would like to point out to everyone that legalizing abortions (or keeping them legal) will not erase the occurence of "back alley" abortions. Furthermore, any medical procedure carries a huge amount of risk and have the potential to be "botched." The chances are not remotely equal, but they are still present in BOTH scenarios.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

That is where the debate should center, instead of the idea that anti-abortionists are somehow crazed fundamentalists who want to punish women, or that pro-abortion supporters are murderous immoral relativists. (climbing down off soap box)

AMEN.

That being said, even if both sides respected the fact that each side sees it differently...they will continue to see it differently. This is the very reason why this debate will never die.

Originally Posted by irishpipes

Basically, (and I hate to say basically, because none of it is basic,) no Catholic can receive Communion if they are not in a state of grace.

Grace is a concept that applies to all of us (sinners) and is only given by God through Jesus Christ. Given that it is God who extends His grace to us, then who is the Church to decide who is in a state of grace and who is not? Given that sinners are EVERYBODY, not just people who have committed acts on "the special list" then are we not all living in a perpetual state of grace? This isn't directed at you, irish, I just really felt the need to say it. This priest (and others like him) needs to get off his high horse because supporting Obama does not mean I am not worthy of a connection with God. No other human's beliefs have bearing on mine and supporting a man who supports an issue does not make me support the issue by extension. Even if it did, God's presence is not a nightclub. If you are going to bring people to Him THEN DO IT. He didn't ask for you to check IDs and attire so you can pick and choose who comes to the table.

[irishpipes]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

Grace is a concept that applies to all of us (sinners) and is only given by God through Jesus Christ. Given that it is God who extends His grace to us, then who is the Church to decide who is in a state of grace and who is not? Given that sinners are EVERYBODY, not just people who have committed acts on "the special list" then are we not all living in a perpetual state of grace? This isn't directed at you, irish, I just really felt the need to say it. This priest (and others like him) needs to get off his high horse because supporting Obama does not mean I am not worthy of a connection with God.

This post is exactly why I previously posted that this is an issue for Catholics. Your definition of grace is not the issue here, and your post indicates that you do not understand Catholic teachings on grace or of ordination and priesthood. This priest was not directing his comments at you, since you aren't Catholic.

[MysticCat]

Whoa, coming into the conversation late. Where to start.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Because those who call themselves "pro-choice" are FOR (hence the "pro") legalized abortion.

eta - I don't want to come off as too snarky, but c'mon. I'm all for straight-forward terms - so pro/anti abortion seems to me to be the best way to describe EXACTLY what is being discussed. Pro-choice - what choice? One from column A, one from column B? Beef or chicken? Pepsi or Coke? It's too broad a word to be used to describe a very particular issue, imho.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

BUT - when the term "pro-choice" is tossed around, it's in regards to abortion. No one debates the legality of being able to keep a baby, or put it up for adoption. If abortion is just a medical procedure with no other baggage, why wouldn't a supporter of legalized abortion be okay with being termed "pro-abortion"? By the same token, if we are talking about abortion it is, I believe, more straight-forward to say you are anti-abortion than any other euphemism.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Both sides need to respect the idea that the other side has a different fundamental belief regarding the point at which life begins. That is where the debate should center, instead of the idea that anti-abortionists are somehow crazed fundamentalists who want to punish women, or that pro-abortion supporters are murderous immoral relativists. (climbing down off soap box)

I think you're overstating the "pro" here SWTXBelle; this latter post gets closer to where I think we need to be. I am pro-choice; I am also, generally speaking, anti-abortion. The "pro" is not because I am "for abortion," and that is what "pro-abortion" would mean. As a moral matter, I think abortion is almost always morally wrong and is always a tragedy. As a political matter, I recognize that there are a variety of beliefs on this subject in the US, and therefore I think this is an area where the government should not interfere, at least early in pregnancy. Politically, therefore, I think the decision (choice) must rest with the mother (and perhaps the father), not the government. Hence, pro-choice, not pro-abortion.

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I don't know if they can solve it, but I prefer a Rogerian approach. Let's work together on those things we agree on - i.e. we want fewer abortions - while still continuing the debate on those things we don't.

I agree completely. It sounded from reports earlier this week like the US Conference of Catholic Bishops might be moving this direction and backing off the idea of "no voting for pro-choice candidates." Anyone know what happened?

Originally Posted by epchick

Well aren't all Christian churches fundamentally the same? I mean if you are "pro-choice" and disagree with the Catholic idea of abortion, then you'll probably disagree with the Protestant (many branches/secs) idea of abortion. Right?

As SWTXBelle said, you'd less rigidity in some Protestant churches. While I don't think any would say abortion is a good thing, some are more willing to leave the decision to the affected parties rather than to have a blanket condemnation. I think most mainline Protestant churches would fall in this catagory. My denomination (the Presbyterian Church (USA)) basically opposes abortion as a means of birth control and gender selection, affirms adoption as a preferable alternative in cases of unwanted children and says that abortion should be the choice of last resort in problem pregnancies. But it ultimately leaves the decision to the parents.

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

Catholics view communion very differently from other Christian denominations. In other denominations, the bread and wine/grape juice are symbolic. But Catholics are supposed to consider them actual body and blood...that Christ "became" the bread and wine. Therefore they do not take their communion lightly. Even though I am presbyterian, I still do not think people should take communion if they do not accept what it stands for.

Just to clarify, in some Protestant denominations, the bread and wine are seen as symbolic, but not in all Protestant denominations. The Lutheran, Episcopal/Anglican and Reformed/Presbyterian churches all reject the idea that the elements are only symbolic and teach some form of the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament. (Yes, even the Presbyterian churches. Even though Zwinglian teaching on the subject (that the elements are symbolic) can be found among Presbyterians, the confessions uniformly reject the idea that the elements are only symbols.)