The Right to die.

[fantASTic]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Having a physician assist in a suicide is asking him/her to disregard the first tenant of medicine "First do no harm."

Can it not be argued that by allowing a patient to live who suffers greatly every day and wishes to not live, the physician is assisting in the harm of that patient?

ETA: I see it was already answered - my bad!

[Tom Earp]

I have it in my will that is binding that I will not be kept alive if there is no hope.

This releives the medical people of any recourse.

Why burden the family if any remaining with medical costs that they cannot afford or want?

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

I have it in my will that is binding that I will not be kept alive if there is no hope.

This releives the medical people of any recourse.

Why burden the family if any remaining with medical costs that they cannot afford or want?

I completely agree with you Tom. Our country goes soooo overboard on end of life care. No one knows how to say enough is enough, because so many decisions are made by people that feel too guilty for not doing enough for their parents and can't let go. Universal health care will never work here for this main reason...most medical costs are associated with the last two weeks of life.

[AKA_Monet]

Let me ask you all this question:

Have you EVER "euthanized" ANYTHING beyond a bug yourself? Particularly, a mammal?

If you have, then you should know with that comes responsibilities, that are sometimes difficult to swallow. You cannot do it with cruel intentions and malice and it must always be done with compassion...

Extending it to humans is difficult--especially if one has never seen another human die albeit slowly, painfully or quickly. Then, it is tough to imagine modern burial techniques--i.e. one must still prep the body even if it is to be cremated.

The best anyone can do is not only have a DNR, no code (because my grandmother's was ignored prolonging her painful existence), but also a Physician's Health Directive, POLST form and a living will and trust.

I personally do NOT want any healthcare worker injecting me with any lethal injections of anything even if I am from the Borg Collective... If I die naturally, with minimal pain because of the morphine drip, then hey, K.I.M.

But healthcare worker assisted suicide no matter what the cause--unrealistic in a "civilized society"... We know we can do better. There are some fine scientists working on the concepts of pain management, chronic diseases of the aging, and improvement of the quality of life. We MUST persuade people that we are better and we will improve health and wellness by all means necessary!

Dr. AKA_Monet
Ariafya LLC

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Let me ask you all this question:

Have you EVER "euthanized" ANYTHING beyond a bug yourself? Particularly, a mammal?

If you have, then you should know with that comes responsibilities, that are sometimes difficult to swallow. You cannot do it with cruel intentions and malice and it must always be done with compassion...

Extending it to humans is difficult--especially if one has never seen another human die albeit slowly, painfully or quickly. Then, it is tough to imagine modern burial techniques--i.e. one must still prep the body even if it is to be cremated.

The best anyone can do is not only have a DNR, no code (because my grandmother's was ignored prolonging her painful existence), but also a Physician's Health Directive, POLST form and a living will and trust.

I personally do NOT want any healthcare worker injecting me with any lethal injections of anything even if I am from the Borg Collective... If I die naturally, with minimal pain because of the morphine drip, then hey, K.I.M.

But healthcare worker assisted suicide no matter what the cause--unrealistic in a "civilized society"... We know we can do better. There are some fine scientists working on the concepts of pain management, chronic diseases of the aging, and improvement of the quality of life. We MUST persuade people that we are better and we will improve health and wellness by all means necessary!

Dr. AKA_Monet
Ariafya LLC

Well said!

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Let me ask you all this question:

Have you EVER "euthanized" ANYTHING beyond a bug yourself? Particularly, a mammal?

If you have, then you should know with that comes responsibilities, that are sometimes difficult to swallow. You cannot do it with cruel intentions and malice and it must always be done with compassion...

Extending it to humans is difficult--especially if one has never seen another human die albeit slowly, painfully or quickly. Then, it is tough to imagine modern burial techniques--i.e. one must still prep the body even if it is to be cremated.

The best anyone can do is not only have a DNR, no code (because my grandmother's was ignored prolonging her painful existence), but also a Physician's Health Directive, POLST form and a living will and trust.

I personally do NOT want any healthcare worker injecting me with any lethal injections of anything even if I am from the Borg Collective... If I die naturally, with minimal pain because of the morphine drip, then hey, K.I.M.

But healthcare worker assisted suicide no matter what the cause--unrealistic in a "civilized society"... We know we can do better. There are some fine scientists working on the concepts of pain management, chronic diseases of the aging, and improvement of the quality of life. We MUST persuade people that we are better and we will improve health and wellness by all means necessary!

Dr. AKA_Monet
Ariafya LLC

I know what you're saying, as I've sat by someone's side as they slipped away - and that's precisely why I really don't know how I feel on this topic anymore. I hate to say "you don't know it unless you've been through it," and I think people have been perfectly reasonable in this thread, but for me, the whole experience raised more personal questions that I haven't been able to answer.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

I know what you're saying, as I've sat by someone's side as they slipped away - and that's precisely why I really don't know how I feel on this topic anymore. I hate to say "you don't know it unless you've been through it," and I think people have been perfectly reasonable in this thread, but for me, the whole experience raised more personal questions that I haven't been able to answer.

I know someone quite well who has to make "life and death decisions" about GMO rodents...

For aggressive euthanasia, by exsanguination, she says her limit is ~10 mice. For "passive aggressive" euthanasia, by asphyxiation, she says her limit ~50 mice.

For rats, after 2, she cannot work anymore.

And after a whole process of euthanizing rodents, she cannot work anymore for ~2 days because she says the whole process is too much for her. Sometimes, she has nightmares. Especially if blood was involved or a full necropsy (an autopsy for animals).

And publish literature on the subject, especially with veterinarian care, says folks limits differ from one animal to another. Like for rodents, not too bad, but for non-human primates, euthanasia is painful to do and watch...

She says sometime you can see in their beady little eyes. And euthanasia is different for neonates mice... She does not like having to do that.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Universal health care will never work here for this main reason...most medical costs are associated with the last two weeks of life.

Do you mind posting the journal to the bolded? Just asking? I had not heard that stat before. But it filters down to us minions over time...

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Do you mind posting the journal to the bolded? Just asking? I had not heard that stat before. But it filters down to us minions over time...

Not sure if it is in this article, but here's a NEJM article on physician-assisted suicide: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/339/3/167

I'm at work and won't have a chance to go through it right away, and it is kind of old (1998), but I figured it might be interesting reading for some of the posters.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Do you mind posting the journal to the bolded? Just asking? I had not heard that stat before. But it filters down to us minions over time...

I'll have to do some searching about that, but it's a commonly held opinion taught at med schools throughout the country. I guess I shouldn't pass on info that I haven't seen myself, but I have a feeling that this is true since the most expensive part of medical care is ICU care. Add in all of the daily radiologic examinations, specialists charges and long length of stay, and the bills get astronomical. I'll post if I find anything definitive.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I'll have to do some searching about that, but it's a commonly held opinion taught at med schools throughout the country. I guess I shouldn't pass on info that I haven't seen myself, but I have a feeling that this is true since the most expensive part of medical care is ICU care. Add in all of the daily radiologic examinations, specialists charges and long length of stay, and the bills get astronomical. I'll post if I find anything definitive.

I have heard it directly from the Chief of ER at a large LA hospital that folks use ER care as routine healthcare... I guess if the pain is too much, folks feel better at the ER... IDK? But the ER care only stabilizes the patient until the "next step"...

The other issue is chronic diseases that most folks who are older get--heart attacks, strokes, etc... I've seen someone in his late 50's who needed a liver transplant, but the dobutamine echo showed his heart could not take the transplant due to the ath plaques. Now, if I can tell on an echo and I am not a sonographer, then this patient was far off...

Was he in pain, probably so. He needed a new liver--I think his was cirrhotic, but the fact remains, we aren't there yet with advances in technology--which means, that we have to take very good care with what we've got...

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

I have it in my will that is binding that I will not be kept alive if there is no hope.

Tom, do you really mean your will, and did a lawyer draft the will? I ask only because in my experience (which I'll readily admit doesn't include Kansas), such a directive in your will, which by definition doesn't take effect until after your death, is meaningless. Most states provide for some version of an Advance Health Care Directive, Living Will or Health Care Proxy/Power of Attorney (or a combination of these) to cover these end of life issues.

Maybe I'm off base here, and sorry if I'm stirring things up unnecessarily; just don't want anyone to be relying on something if it won't be effective to carry out their intentions.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Tom, do you really mean your will, and did a lawyer draft the will? I ask only because in my experience (which I'll readily admit doesn't include Kansas), such a directive in your will, which by definition doesn't take effect until after your death, is meaningless. Most states provide for some version of an Advance Health Care Directive, Living Will or Health Care Proxy/Power of Attorney (or a combination of these) to cover these end of life issues.

Maybe I'm off base here, and sorry if I'm stirring things up unnecessarily; just don't want anyone to be relying on something if it won't be effective to carry out their intentions.

What part did you not understand about what I said? It is in my will which is a binding contract that any judge will abide by. He has to because it is The Law!

This is my last will and testiment no matter what.

It is written in stone, notorized, period.

Yes, it is done by a Lawyer who is a Brother of mine.

It was my decission and he abided by the Law of the area.


Sorry mot to be snide as there is a difference than snarky!

[Jimmy Choo]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

What part did you not understand about what I said? It is in my will which is a binding contract that any judge will abide by. He has to because it is The Law!

This is my last will and testiment no matter what.

It is written in stone, notorized, period.

Yes, it is done by a Lawyer who is a Brother of mine.

It was my decission and he abided by the Law of the area.


Sorry mot to be snide as there is a difference than snarky!

What MC is saying is that you should have a living will which documents those end-of-life decisions. That's great that you have it in your last will & testament but that doesn't kick in UNTIL you are dead. It has no bearing on what happens to you when you are alive. No doctor is going to ask to see your will if you are coding in a hospital!!!!

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

What part did you not understand about what I said? It is in my will which is a binding contract that any judge will abide by. He has to because it is The Law!

This is my last will and testiment no matter what.

It is written in stone, notorized, period.

Yes, it is done by a Lawyer who is a Brother of mine.

It was my decission and he abided by the Law of the area.


Sorry mot to be snide as there is a difference than snarky!

Calm down - MC was asking a very reasonable question, for the reasons that he and Kevin explained. A lot of people think that they're signing certain documents, when in actuality those documents don't have the power they would like or prefer.

What you signed does sound a lot more like an Advanced Directive.

*Also not legal advice - just the impressions of a law student who has taken courses in trusts & estates and elder law.)*