vaccinate your kids, or else!!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I think, based on the article, that you can have a religious objection or a medical objection (this'd be a doctor's note or requirement), but not just an "i don't want to" objection.

Like so many things, it varies from state to state. Where I live, the only acceptable objection is the religious objection.

[AKA_Monet]

MysticCat,

Does your son have any "odd outcomes to illnesses" that you would normally write-off because he is a kid? For example, you said allergies and post nasal drip? How often does he gets these sniffles and to what, specifically, i.e. dust, molds, dog hair or odd things like "fresh tomatoes" or "celery"?

I have not read or studied much research on odd allergies, but I am seeing more children having these kinds of allergies.


I agree with others, if you choose not to have the vaccine, sign the waiver, but your child may not be able to attend public school.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Like so many things, it varies from state to state. Where I live, the only acceptable objection is the religious objection.

True, I was just responding to the fact that these parents probably had to do more than sign a form. They had to get the shots or provide proof that they had.

[BigRedBeta]

No offense to anyone here, but in my humble, yet growing medical opinion, there is (other than religious) ABSOLUTELY no reason not to vaccinate your children on schedule. I say this as current medical student and future pediatrician.

An admittedly cursory search through abstracts on PubMed with the search term "Immunizations AND autism" yielded no studies in any medical journals which could establish a significant link between immunization status and autism spectrum disorders. Until a study can show that the increased incidence of autism isn't due to increased awareness, increased availability of early intervention services, and a broadening of diagnostic categories, the prudent course of action will continue to be the full course of vaccinations. Seriously, I've had parents come in literally begging for a diagnosis of autism so they can get special services. And yet their children weren't even borderline and acted completely appropriate. This is also not a case of pharmaceutical companies trying to make a profit. Vaccines are much cheaper than courses of treatments for any of the diseases that they prevent. That's the whole point - vaccines not only prevent death but are more cost-efficient than treating the actual disease. For example, the Gardasil vaccines which, are the most expensive vaccines I currently know of, run more than $300 for the sequence...that's A LOT cheaper than having to deal with treatment of cervical cancer! If vaccines weren't cheaper than effective treatments for a disease, it would make zero sense to give the vaccines.

If you're worried about the number of shots your child gets at one time - I can understand that a little better, however there are new combo vaccines being developed by the pharmaceutical companies at this point which I believe are in Phase III clinical trials with good results.

I can't stress it enough that vaccines are important. When sick children present with incomplete vaccination histories, it completely alters the way in which pediatricians think, and leads to decisions that cost families emotionally, physically, and financially due to having to prepare for the worst case scenario.

Finally, Mark Twain said

"Be careful what you read in health texts, you may die of a misprint".

I can't stress this enough when you are doing research on the internet. Please, please, please consider the source, not only for bias but also accuracy, completeness and trustworthiness.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

No offense to anyone here, but in my humble, yet growing medical opinion, there is (other than religious) ABSOLUTELY no reason not to vaccinate your children on schedule. I say this as current medical student and future pediatrician.

In my humble opinion as a parent, I believe it is well within my rights to choose to delay vaccinations if I feel it is in the best interest of my child(ren). My child (and any future ones we may have) will all be vaccinated appropriately by the time they enter kindergarten (most likely even by the time they enter preschool). I will not skip vaccinations (except varicella. I'm still undecided on that. There are benefits and risks to both the vaccination and catching chicken pox naturally.) I will not let my child have his shots if he is in any way sick, even if he just has a small cold (which is how we got delayed in the first place). But I will always catch up, even if it takes a few months or a year. Our family doctor (who serves as my son's pediatrician) is completely understanding and on board with this.

Again in my humble opinion as a parent, the best thing you can do as a future pediatrician is continue your research and allow yourself an open conversation with your patients parents. Talk with them and work with them on figuring out a schedule that works for them if they feel very strongly about vaccinations. Don't try and push your personal opinions on them. Almost every parent I know who has chosen to delay has done extensive research - reading books (both pro and con) and reports from the CDC - and come to their decision independently.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

No offense to anyone here, but in my humble, yet growing medical opinion, there is (other than religious) ABSOLUTELY no reason not to vaccinate your children on schedule. I say this as current medical student and future pediatrician.

Well, you're a medical student right now--every professional who's had to have additional education (ie, medicine, law, etc.) always says that they learned more during their first six months on the job than they did in school. I know I certainly did. So, between now and the end of your first year as a doctor, your opinion might change as you get more practical experience.

There was an article not too long ago that urged parents to trust their own instincts about their kids a little more instead of giving into doctors' opinions right away. I can't find the link, though.

[alum]

Are pediatricians subject to malpractice insurance premium increases if they accept patients who delay or refuse vaccinations?

Can a physician refuse to accept patients whose parents are not willing to vax on the APA recommended schedule?

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by alum

Are pediatricians subject to malpractice insurance premium increases if they accept patients who delay or refuse vaccinations?

Can a physician refuse to accept patients whose parents are not willing to vax on the APA recommended schedule?

I can't speak on that, but I do believe if the pediatrician is not willing to at least work with the parents, the parents should find a new doctor who is willing to work with them. It goes both ways, IMO.

Again, I'm not advocating against vaccinations entirely, I just don't necessarily agree with absolutely having to vax on schedule. And I believe a parent should have the right to delay if they so choose. But, children should be up-to-date on vaxes by the time their child reaches school age.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Well, you're a medical student right now--every professional who's had to have additional education (ie, medicine, law, etc.) always says that they learned more during their first six months on the job than they did in school. I know I certainly did. So, between now and the end of your first year as a doctor, your opinion might change as you get more practical experience.

There was an article not too long ago that urged parents to trust their own instincts about their kids a little more instead of giving into doctors' opinions right away. I can't find the link, though.

If I recall that article also said to take the doctor's opinions into account, as they do know more. To refuse to vaccinate and put other people's kids at risk is foolish, and I doubt those people took the doctors studies into account.

Vaccinations are not something that doctors change their mind about, more experience or not.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

No offense to anyone here, but in my humble, yet growing medical opinion, there is (other than religious) ABSOLUTELY no reason not to vaccinate your children on schedule. I say this as current medical student and future pediatrician.

An admittedly cursory search through abstracts on PubMed with the search term "Immunizations AND autism" yielded no studies in any medical journals which could establish a significant link between immunization status and autism spectrum disorders. Until a study can show that the increased incidence of autism isn't due to increased awareness, increased availability of early intervention services, and a broadening of diagnostic categories, the prudent course of action will continue to be the full course of vaccinations.

I admire your statements and your courage to present your opinion here. I also think we seriously need to examine how we are vaccinating our children from a Public Health perspective.

Like I said, they no longer even make the polio or smallpox vaccines with heat killed viruses containing adjuvants. Most vaccines are nucleic acid based. That doesn't mean we do not follow schedules, that just means we re-examine conventional wisdom with newer technology and better markers.

Autism is a nasty disorder and there is very little understanding as to why there are increased diagnoses of it. Vaccines may be one factor, mythological or not. But Measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria-pertussis and tuberculosis is NOT a myth...

Ultimately, the qualified professionals will be making their best diagnosis based on recommendations by the government and various societies and it is going to be tough.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

MysticCat,

Does your son have any "odd outcomes to illnesses" that you would normally write-off because he is a kid? For example, you said allergies and post nasal drip? How often does he gets these sniffles and to what, specifically, i.e. dust, molds, dog hair or odd things like "fresh tomatoes" or "celery"?

I have not read or studied much research on odd allergies, but I am seeing more children having these kinds of allergies.

None that I can think of -- the sniffles are usually seasonal, and when others in the house have them as well. But again, you've given me something to keep an eye out for.

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

No offense to anyone here, but in my humble, yet growing medical opinion, there is (other than religious) ABSOLUTELY no reason not to vaccinate your children on schedule. I say this as current medical student and future pediatrician.

No offense to a current medical student and future pediatrician, but you'll find that many parents, due to their less-than-positive interactions with medical professionals, are convinced either that the research hasn't caught up yet or that medical professionals have tunnel vision and are unwilling to (I can't believe I'm about to say this) think outside the box. Even I feel that way at times, and you can't find many people more willing to go along with conventional medical practice than me.

Too many parents with kids on the spectrum (why anyone would want that for their kids is beyond me) have dealt with pediatricians who don't really understand what autism is to begin with. I can tell you that many of these parents have not found the medical profession to be helpful in understanding and helping their children. (That is not my experience, but it is the experience of many other parents.)

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

Again in my humble opinion as a parent, the best thing you can do as a future pediatrician is continue your research and allow yourself an open conversation with your patients parents.

I agree completely. The only thing I would add is to keep up with the research, which is always evolving, and don't write off what the parents are telling you they are experiencing and seeing when it doesn't match up with the research.

[nikki1920]

I worked with kids who were on the spectrum (high and low functioning) and some parents were willing to do what ever it took to get a Social Security disability check (now $623, up to $637 Jan. 1) for their child. That's a lot of money to most people. That entitles them to "free" medical coverage, and other things. It's disheartening. I see this a lot at work.

I think some parents AND medical professionals are quick to discount the others' perspective. Each side has to give credit to the other when appropriate. Did anyone see the Oprah show where she discussed Autism? That was very good, very balanced to both sides. The doctors may know what they've studied and their patients, but as a parent EYE (for emphasis) know my child better than her doctor and I am responsible for advocating for them. My doctor should be on the same side as I am, not working against me.

Someone said earlier something about the varicella vaccine? I debated on getting that for my child, since I had a BAD case of it when I was younger, but apparently the strain has changed and children were developing serious complications from it. She ended up getting the vaccine.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by nikki1920

I worked with kids who were on the spectrum (high and low functioning) and some parents were willing to do what ever it took to get a Social Security disability check (now $623, up to $637 Jan. 1) for their child. That's a lot of money to most people. That entitles them to "free" medical coverage, and other things. It's disheartening. I see this a lot at work.

Wow. Just wow. That never even occurred to me -- which I'm glad of.

I think some parents AND medical professionals are quick to discount the others' perspective. Each side has to give credit to the other when appropriate.

I agree completely. The key is finding a pediatrician you are comfortable with so that you can work together as a team.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by nikki1920

Someone said earlier something about the varicella vaccine? I debated on getting that for my child, since I had a BAD case of it when I was younger, but apparently the strain has changed and children were developing serious complications from it. She ended up getting the vaccine.

That was me. From what I've read (and garnered from talking to other parents), the Varicella vax "wears off" so to speak after about 10 years, so the child either has to get a booster (not an impossibility, just aggravating) or worry about catching chicken pox as a teen/adult where the symptoms and complications associated with the disease can be more severe.

But, by catching chicken pox naturally at a young age where the symptoms and complications are less severe, the body is more or less immune for the rest of their life.

Again, that's my understanding.

[ForeverRoses]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

But, by catching chicken pox naturally at a young age where the symptoms and complications are less severe, the body is more or less immune for the rest of their life.

Again, that's my understanding.

I was always told that you can only get chicken pox once; However once you have chicken pox, the virus stays in your body and you can get shingles.

So as I understand it, the vaccine prevents chicken pox and you can't get shingles without having had the chicken pox first. (so it sort-of prevents two things).

Hope this makes sense.