Warning: The next generation might just be the biggest pile of idiots in U.S. history

[KSig RC]

Nice rant - it would be nice if he were to, y'know, support his views with actual facts instead of anecdotes . . . nah, that would be too intelligent and scientific and would completely lack irony.

This kind of article is written, in one form or another, every generation - OH NO ELVIS'S CROTCH WILL CAUSE ABORTIONS AND POPULATION WILL SHRINK.

It's mindless and lacks journalistic integrity. Prove your points, you ignorant douche columnist.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Nice rant - it would be nice if he were to, y'know, support his views with actual facts instead of anecdotes . . . nah, that would be too intelligent and scientific and would completely lack irony.

Exactly. This kind of stuff is basically only good for lining the birdcage.

BTW, Daemon, the link doesn't work. But you might want to note the GC policy on quoting copyrighted material as found in the Welcome to the News and Politics Forum thread.

[AlethiaSi]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...&sn=002&sc=577

thats the link, i had to search for it, but easy to find

[AGDee]

I can give plenty of anecdotes that contradict the statements that this man makes based on my own observations of my middle school aged kids and their friends. I see quite the opposite. When I was in kindergarten, we played, we learned our colors, learned our alphabet and pretty much just learned how to share and be away from home. When my kids hit kindergarten, the teacher was teaching reading skills. They have started everything earlier than we did, from handwriting to multiplication tables. There are some basic things that they didn't have to do, like memorize state capitals, but then I thought to myself "It's so easy for them to look that up, why memorize it?" And, they definitely learned how to use a ruler, compass and protractor. The honors math classes are starting earlier also. It used to be that the highest math track started algebra in 8th grade, now they are starting in 7th grade. With technology, the amount of information to be learned has increased exponentially. Do you know how much more they know about DNA and Genetics than in 1981 when I had Biology II?

This generation has access to so much more information than we did. We would open an encyclopedia to get information for an essay paper. They surf the web and find more in depth information than any encyclopedia would give them.

I'm not worried at all. I observe some of these kids and find them to be engaging and ambitious with a good social conscience as well. I trust them with my future.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I can give plenty of anecdotes that contradict the statements that this man makes based on my own observations of my middle school aged kids and their friends. I see quite the opposite.

I agree. I'd bet my 10-year-old understands the Theory of Relativity better than this columnist. (He understands it better than I do -- he decided he wanted to know about it, did the research and left me behind.)

[UGAalum94]

I agree that the column was lame, but this is an issue near my heart.

I think it's certainly possible that as teachers age, we lose the pop cultural connections that make us able to appreciate how nonintellectual kids are still smart.

When I was 25, say, I would have understood the intelligence that it took for a kid to connect and make a somewhat witty comment about a TV show or band that teenagers watched or listened too because I still knew the bands or shows; whereas today, maybe I'm more likely to just think he's just dumb because my interests have changed and I don't know his bands or shows. So some of the intergenerational condemnation stuff may just be a reflection of the distance in non-academic matters as teachers age. We teachers may be predisposed to think the kids we're teaching at the end of our careers are dumb.

But, even with that possibility, here's what I see and I believe it could be objectively measured: I think there's a bigger gap between the top kids and what they learn, reflected by AGDee and MysticCat's personal experience and what I see my gifted or AP students know*, and what all the other kids, who probably make up the vast majority of kids in public schools, know, which often seems to be dangerously close to absolutely nothing or nothing academic anyway.

I think even the lowest achievers know how to play complicated computer games and how to use every gadget on their cell phones, so they do know some stuff and have some skills. What they know just isn't usually stuff that I think it's important to know in terms of being an educated voter, citizen, or employee.

They don't know much and they can't think critically or logically about most issues. (I know we all have logical lapses, but they can't even be lead through ideas presented in a syllogistic or proof form and then apply what they've learned. God forbid that you show them more than one way to do something and expect them to recognize the best method for what they are doing on future occasions.)

And it seems to me that the kids I taught 10 year ago or really even five years ago were better off. They could do tasks that my present students cannot or require much more assistance in doing. And you can also see the same kind of dumbing it down if you look at the textbook published for the same course over a span of ten or fifteen years. The reading level is lower and the expectations for what they kids will master are lower.

*the top kids are three years ahead in math and seem to at least have been introduced to much more complex material in science, history and English. Sometimes, I'm a little disappointed in the accuracy of what they've been taught, but that's not a reflection on the kids.

[AKA_Monet]

AGDee and MysticCat--that's because you all are good parents...

But I understand what both parties mean.

This past summer I had a young teenage "girl" to me that I was mentoring, showing her how to determine blood pressure on mice and surgeries on rats. She took copious notes, followed ever direction I gave her, was able to make her own chemical solutions and present her work to the "public" intelligently. Her mother was just so happy her daughter could have this chance. But, what I think it was that this young lady had gone to private school and several members of her family sacrificed her going to that school.

Meanwhile, I have had students, that would take the stipend money and sleep with their new found little boy- or girlfriends in the dorm. There would not show up for work or show up late, they would talk back to me, fall asleep at work, put there iPODs on and tune out.

Then some of these same kids became 1st quarter freshmen, let's just say that the retention rate is extremely low for the 2nd quarter...

These kids had gone to a public school system school. I am not mocking the parents or schools. But we all must make a difference in every child's life. Maybe make a tax credit for tutoring young people for work and employers get extra bonuses if more of their employees spend time with school aged children? I don't know?

I do know about some my teaching skills, and I can motivate college-age kids and middle school kids into science interests.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

This kind of article is written, in one form or another, every generation.

Exactly.

The sky is falling, film at eleven...

[AGDee]

I think there has always been a significant difference between the AP/College Prep level kids and the "remedial" kids though. I remember being completed astounded when I had to take 12th grade Civics. It was pretty much the only class through all of high school that all levels took together and I hated it. I couldn't believe how unmotivated and "stupid" some of the students in there were.

One thing that does concern me is that, as we move away from being an agricultural and manufacturing society, there are fewer jobs for those who are less intellectually inclined. Yes, we still need carpenters, plumbers, etc., but we have automated a lot of things.

In Michigan, they have replaced the 11th grade statewide test (MEAP) with the ACT and some other subtests that they've made up to supplement it. I think it's ludicrous to have every student in every high school take the ACT. It is standardized for college bound kids. Not all kids are or should be, college bound.

I struggle when talking with a co-worker of mine whose daughter is academically challenged. She has some severe learning disabilities and her mother spends an inordinate amount of time assisting her so that she can keep her head above water. She talks constantly about getting her daughter to do well enough to be able to go to college and is convinced that they will provide a level of support equal to what she now provides for her daughter. I would like to believe that, if it were my daughter, I would focus on her strengths and encourage her to get training in a career that would utilize her strengths, even if it didn't involve college, rather than try to fight the way her brain is wired. I worry that she is setting her daughter up to fail.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that there have always been "tiers" of academic achievement. Some people simply aren't at the same level as others. Some can get close through very hard work, but for some, they can learn with very little effort. I don't think that has changed much. What may be changing is how successful one can be if they struggle in an academic setting because there aren't as many well paying jobs available these days for thsoe who aren't well educated.

[DeltAlum]

AGDee,

I think you're mostly correct -- except that I think there are a lot of opportunities left in our society for non-academically inclined people. Detroit/Michigan is probably not the best place to judge, given the sturggles of the auto industry, but there are many more service industry jobs -- ones that aren't being filled. The real problem, in my view, is the low pay for those positions.

As for your friend and her daughter, her mother is in for a rude shock, I fear, if she thinks all colleges and their professors will offer the support that she gets in public schools.

It does seem a cop out to make every student take what is a college entrance type test, however augmented. There are a lot of kids who have no interest and no business in college.

Our oldest and youngest graduated high school and college with high academic honors, but our middle had no interest in education at all and went to "hair school" and really loves being a colorist. She would certainly not have made it in college.

Parents need to realize that some kids just aren't meant for the university.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

AGDee,

I think you're mostly correct -- except that I think there are a lot of opportunities left in our society for non-academically inclined people. Detroit/Michigan is probably not the best place to judge, given the sturggles of the auto industry, but there are many more service industry jobs -- ones that aren't being filled. The real problem, in my view, is the low pay for those positions.

Parents need to realize that some kids just aren't meant for the university.

Yes, my concern is that people can't support themselves on the pay they receive for those service level jobs. And you're right, Detroit/Michigan are hurting badly these days because there was once the attitude "You don't need to go to college, just get a job on the line" and that used to work fine (and those people made more money than a lot of college grads too!).

[Taualumna]

And there are those parents who're proud of their kids even if the kids have flunked every single course they took the previous year. Mr. Tau works with a woman whose son AND daughter who failed every single course (with the exception of physical education) last year. This mom, however, is still convinced that both her kids will be star athletes, and will get a scholarship to a US school. The mom is doing nothing to get the kids' grades up. She isn't hiring tutors or sending them to academic camps in the summer. Nothing. According to Mr. Tau, she seems to be PROUD of her kids.