Sexual orientation and MS

andrea981 · #1 08-24-2007, 02:41 PM

I agree with 33. I remember I was at a convention for my NPC org and a progressive girl from an Oregon chapter introduced a bill from the floor to change the bylaws to include sexual orientation in the sorority's already existing anti-discrimination laws. There were little old ladies that actually gasped -- no joke. In our sorority the alum chapters each have a vote equal to the active chapters, but because there are about 50% more alum chapters, that kind of keeps the sorority locked in the past a little more.

If it was up to actives only -- I'm sure that girl's bill (or motion) would have passed.

Senusret I · #2 08-26-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SECdomination

I don't know what our clause says, but we have no gays in our chapter: and we're doing just fine.

That you know of.

UGAalum94 · #3 08-26-2007, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senusret I

That you know of.

Exactly.

Even groups with no anti-discrimination policies who have no "out to the group" members are likely to have had gay or lesbian members in the past and maybe in the present.

But I don't know how effective anti-discrimination clauses are anyway because the actual membership standards used to assemble a particular new members class are often so subjective as to be inarticulable. No matter what the national standards are, I think all of them rely to some degree on the interaction between PNMs and current members, and awareness of a pnms sexual orientation, if it makes the present member uncomfortable, is likely to make him or her think the pnm's "fit" for the organization isn't right.

I'm not defending this practice, and I believe that members of an organization with anti-discrimination clauses should always internally check themselves to make sure that it's not their own prejudice creeping in, but expecting all undergraduate members to carefully evaluate themselves about one particular PNM in a recruitment with a ton of pnms might be asking more than it seems at first.

In a COB situation or with NPHC intake, you really might be considering a person as an individual on a deep individual level. In a big formal recruitment, not so much.

LoggerTheta · #4 08-26-2007, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senusret I

That you know of.

Exactly. I can't really relate because I go to a VERY liberal school in Western Washington (we were one of two small private colleges on The Advocate's list of top 20 schools for the support of LGBT students. (The other was Oberlin) and I am an active member of BGLAD (Bisexuals, Gays, Lesbians, and Allies for Diversity.) However, I can DEFINITELY understand how a member of a greek organization in a politically conservative area of the country would much rather stay in the closet then face the ridicule that would invariablly occur, which is tragic in my opinion. Especially because sorority sisters/fraternity brothers should support each other unequivocally.

AlexMack · #5 08-26-2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoggerTheta

Exactly. I can't really relate because I go to a VERY liberal school in Western Washington (we were one of two small private colleges on The Advocate's list of top 20 schools for the support of LGBT students. (The other was Oberlin) and I am an active member of BGLAD (Bisexuals, Gays, Lesbians, and Allies for Diversity.) However, I can DEFINITELY understand how a member of a greek organization in a politically conservative area of the country would much rather stay in the closet then face the ridicule that would invariablly occur, which is tragic in my opinion. Especially because sorority sisters/fraternity brothers should support each other unequivocally.

Agreed. My big is a lesbian and my new member educator is also. Our chapter readily accepted this as fact and we even talked about relationship stuff with them like we would if we had boy issues. My big would bring her partner to date parties, formals etc. She was also chapter president and one of the greatest women I know.

It makes me so sad to know that you can stay in the closet, everyone will love you for you but that the one small detail of liking the same sex is enough to turn people off. Apparently we have no sexual orientation clause in our bylaws but I would hope that my sisters all over the country would know better than to turn someone down who would make a fabulous sister just because she's gay.

UGAalum94 · #6 08-26-2007, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexMack

Agreed. My big is a lesbian and my new member educator is also. Our chapter readily accepted this as fact and we even talked about relationship stuff with them like we would if we had boy issues. My big would bring her partner to date parties, formals etc. She was also chapter president and one of the greatest women I know.

It makes me so sad to know that you can stay in the closet, everyone will love you for you but that the one small detail of liking the same sex is enough to turn people off. Apparently we have no sexual orientation clause in our bylaws but I would hope that my sisters all over the country would know better than to turn someone down who would make a fabulous sister just because she's gay.

I think the number of people who actually know a person and love her for being her as long as she is closeted but wouldn't if she were out is really pretty tiny. Although there may be some people who operate that way, surely it wouldn't be the majority on any campus or in any Greek system.

The problem comes in with how recruitment works on many campuses. It's superficial and seems to be about like finding like. To be out during an SEC recruitment (and I'm not sure why it would particularly come up if conversations about boys, booze, bank and Bible are forbidden), I think might mean that your sexual orientation would be your defining characteristic. If the group already knew you as a person because you were an active member's sister or from the same hometown as a lot of members, I think you would get a fair membership evaluation.

But if you are just known as the lesbian PNM, you're taking a risk that it will eclipse other aspects of your identity because it would still be kind of exceptional on some campuses.

Once in the group though, I can't imagine any female group rescinding membership based on orientation.

I think the number of SEC fraternities that would keep a gay pledge is probably smaller than most of us want to think.

LatinaAlumna · #7 08-26-2007, 06:49 PM

My sorority specifically states that we do not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation (among many other things).

ladygreek · #8 08-26-2007, 08:14 PM

It is good to see the number of posters who support GLBTQ's in their organizations.

The only thing I will say is the best thing is to get to the point where if someone asks the questions if you allow Gays in your org, you are able to look or type with an incredulous expression--"a that's a silly question, or course we do" answer and leave it at that. When you start giving examples it starts sounding as if are trying to convince yourself--sorta like the "are you racist" question that people answer with "no I am not, my next door neighbors are Black and they have been to my home".

LaneSig · #9 08-26-2007, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SECdomination

Progress for the sake of progress is an unfortunate idea.

I don't know what our clause says, but we have no gays in our chapter: and we're doing just fine.

I know of no HQ or IHQ that is saying that you have to take gay members. The nondiscriminatory clauses just mean that ideally, being gay should not be a factor for or against a member or PNM. That being said, there are chapters that would hold it against someone and some that will not.

And, go right ahead believing that there are no gay members in your chapter. There are. They aren't out publicly because either they aren't ready to be out, or they think that they just "Haven't met the right girl yet", or they know that many members of your chapter will not be accepting. You may even have a member or two who are out privately to a couple of the other members that they trust. It happens.

ETA: Sorry, the bold emphasis would not turn off. I tried. I really tried.

macallan25 · #10 08-26-2007, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaneSig

I know of no HQ or IHQ that is saying that you have to take gay members. The nondiscriminatory clauses just mean that ideally, being gay should not be a factor for or against a member or PNM. That being said, there are chapters that would hold it against someone and some that will not.

And, go right ahead believing that there are no gay members in your chapter. There are. They aren't out publicly because either they aren't ready to be out, or they think that they just "Haven't met the right girl yet", or they know that many members of your chapter will not be accepting. You may even have a member or two who are out privately to a couple of the other members that they trust. It happens.

ETA: Sorry, the bold emphasis would not turn off. I tried. I really tried.

I get what you are saying, but come on. How do you know "there are" gays in his chapter? That's ridiculous. If you told me that to my face.......I'd argue with you to no end. I mean, are you not practically saying there are gay men in every chapter that none of us "know about yet"? I may be stereotyping and just going off common traits......but I don't find it that difficult to spot a gay man or a guy that is extremely confused with his sexuality. To me, they stick out like a sore thumb.

Senusret I · #11 08-26-2007, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macallan25

I get what you are saying, but come on. How do you know "there are" gays in his chapter? That's ridiculous. If you told me that to my face.......I'd argue with you to no end. I mean, are you not practically saying there are gay men in every chapter that none of us "know about yet"? I may be stereotyping and just going off common traits......but I don't find it that difficult to spot a gay man or a guy that is extremely confused with his sexuality. To me, they stick out like a sore thumb.

And then there are guys who aren't confused at all and just don't want or need for you to know.

DeltAlum · #12 08-26-2007, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senusret I

And then there are guys who aren't confused at all and just don't want or need for you to know.

And to take it a step farther, why should any of us need to know?

Someone's sexual orientation is his or her business, not mine.

macallan25 · #13 08-26-2007, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senusret I

And then there are guys who aren't confused at all and just don't want or need for you to know.

I guess I can respond to you and Delt.

That's a tough subject. I would want to know if a gay man were in my fraternity. Simple as that. I'm perfectly comfortable saying that I wouldn't want to live with one, especially in my room at the fraternity house. I don't agree with it, and I think it would be a bad situation. Other's most definitely feel the same way. If I was living with a guy who hid it from me and then I found out about it later, or walked in on him and some dude.........we would be having a serious problem. People are free to make their own decisions about their sexuality, none of my business. I am extremely against it and overall pretty much disgusted by it, but it's still their choice. In a fraternity/fraternity house setting, I think they should let people know.

ealymc · #14 09-21-2007, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macallan25

I guess I can respond to you and Delt.

That's a tough subject. I would want to know if a gay man were in my fraternity. Simple as that. I'm perfectly comfortable saying that I wouldn't want to live with one, especially in my room at the fraternity house. I don't agree with it, and I think it would be a bad situation. Other's most definitely feel the same way. If I was living with a guy who hid it from me and then I found out about it later, or walked in on him and some dude.........we would be having a serious problem. People are free to make their own decisions about their sexuality, none of my business. I am extremely against it and overall pretty much disgusted by it, but it's still their choice. In a fraternity/fraternity house setting, I think they should let people know.

All of this speaks to the very reason that he wouldn't tell you...

AlexMack · #15 08-27-2007, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macallan25

I get what you are saying, but come on. How do you know "there are" gays in his chapter? That's ridiculous. If you told me that to my face.......I'd argue with you to no end. I mean, are you not practically saying there are gay men in every chapter that none of us "know about yet"? I may be stereotyping and just going off common traits......but I don't find it that difficult to spot a gay man or a guy that is extremely confused with his sexuality. To me, they stick out like a sore thumb.

You're back! I'm so glad, I missed you!