Sex Change and Membership

[FSUZeta]

but would manolos come in size 16?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

but would manolos come in size 16?

Nice.

[ChildoftheHorn]

Hmm....

I would say that if you are a gender-confused individual, sorority membership is probably the last thing on your mind. Seriously, if you consider yourself more like a guy...why would you want to be around flower prints and pink for long periods of time?

I really don't think that a guy who thinks himself a girl would want to be in a trashed out fraternity house and do "manly" things.

Homosexuality is something else entirely. I know some homosexual men who are in fraternities, but they are "manly" and are not at all the stereotype. LOL, most of their brothers don't even know because they don't suspect it even though they freely admit it. There was a guy who tried to rush the sororities last year, but it was shot down. I don't really know any homosexual females, so I cannot comment at all on that.

Be REALISTIC PEOPLE!!!!!

FYI, HQ would probably never know unless you were very very public with it or told them.

[Thetagirl218]

So this an interesting thread. I honestly don't know why a fraternity alum who went through a sex change would want to stay a member? I know that sounds harsh, but a fraternity represents a men's only organization (I am NOT refeering to women's fraternities here), and isn't the point of having a sex change to embrace the woman you were all along? So why would this previous male join a fraternity anyways? Its just confusing to me.

Also, I was waiting for the whole homosexual topic to come up and it did. I know both fraternity and sorority members who are homosexual and this is not a problem in their chapters or universities.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Thetagirl218

Also, I was waiting for the whole homosexual topic to come up and it did. I know both fraternity and sorority members who are homosexual and this is not a problem in their chapters or universities.

Yeah, that's less of a big deal. What someone does in the sack is not my business. Whether they meet minimal requirements for membership is.

[Drolefille]

I know bisexual and lesbian women who are members of NPC chapters. Mostly it doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.

[preciousjeni]

Wow GC! I have had an ongoing conversation about transgender/transsexual membership within my own sorority. I keep hitting a wall when I try to figure out how one legally changes gender. Does anyone know if you can change your gender on legal documents? I know it's possible to change the gender listed on your SS# file if your birth certificate shows the other sex.

I think that's the biggest issue at this point for me. Personally, if a woman who identified as male and who wanted to be referred to as "he/him" had Theta Nu Xi in his heart and wanted to spend a lifetime supporting our mission and tenets, I would accept the interest. However, I can't imagine that sorority membership would appeal to a female-born male.

The more understandable situation would be a male-born female. And, here's where the situation gets sticky. If a person cannot LEGALLY change his or her gender, extending membership would threaten Title IX exemption. I've considered the option of going co-ed as this would be the most logical move to be as inclusive as possible, but that was not the vision of my founders so I do not support it.

[sageofages]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Wow GC! I have had an ongoing conversation about transgender/transsexual membership within my own sorority. I keep hitting a wall when I try to figure out how one legally changes gender. Does anyone know if you can change your gender on legal documents? I know it's possible to change the gender listed on your SS# file if your birth certificate shows the other sex.

I think that's the biggest issue at this point for me. Personally, if a woman who identified as male and who wanted to be referred to as "he/him" had Theta Nu Xi in his heart and wanted to spend a lifetime supporting our mission and tenets, I would accept the interest. However, I can't imagine that sorority membership would appeal to a female-born male.

The more understandable situation would be a male-born female. And, here's where the situation gets sticky. If a person cannot LEGALLY change his or her gender, extending membership would threaten Title IX exemption. I've considered the option of going co-ed as this would be the most logical move to be as inclusive as possible, but that was not the vision of my founders so I do not support it.

Yes, you can legally change your gender. On your birth certificate, on your social security card, and on your driver's license. It is all part of the process of gender reassignment. Actually it all occurs PRIOR to the reassignment surgery. There are incremental steps in the process...which is carefully dictated by laws involving psychiatrists, physicians and the legal system. I have several M=>F transgendered friends. A good book to read is "She's Not There" by Jennifer Finney Boylan.

[banditone]

wow.... we must be really running low on actual topics.

[Little E]

I never really post on here anymore but this one hit home. My chapter bid a woman who was considering reassignment. It was a long process - in terms of her deciding on the bid - ultimately it didn't make sense for her to join (to herself, not the chapter). She felt that because she really was a man, a woman's organization didn't really fit her. The founding principles would never fully click because at the heart of single-sex orgs is that we are single sex.

I think while 99% of the of the chapters in the world will never deal with this, there are a few of us weird non-conformist chapters out there, it is always good to know you aren't the only group posed with the question.

Side note: Reassingment is a very very long process. There is no way you would ever see an 18 year old going through rush who is about to get the surgery. Living as the opposite sex, yes, but probably not reassigned. From what I understand, you need to be completely done with puberty (for men this last much longer than women if you remember hs health class) then you have all of the psych counceling and hormone therapy. It takes years. I think this question is more pertinant to what happens when an alumn gets reassingned (my guess is they would be asked to resign if National ever even found out).

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by Little E

Side note: Reassignment is a very very long process. There is no way you would ever see an 18 year old going through rush who is about to get the surgery. Living as the opposite sex, yes, but probably not reassigned. From what I understand, you need to be completely done with puberty (for men this last much longer than women if you remember HS health class) then you have all of the psych counseling and hormone therapy. It takes years. I think this question is more pertinent to what happens when an alumni gets reassigned (my guess is they would be asked to resign if National ever even found out).

As I posted above, one of my pledge Brothers DID did go through the process; way after graduation.

My Brother is STILL listed as an active Brother; just with a new name.
National had to know something about it.

[summer_gphib]

Oh My Goodness, what a thread. I just really hope any stalker-type PNM's don't get the idea, that if they've rushed two or three times and still didn't get a bid, that they can have gender reassignment and try rushing. I can see it now. XYZ sorority wouldn't give me a bid, so I decided to change genders so I can be a member of ABC fraternity.

***
disclaimer: The above was said in complete sarcasm and is rolling in smartassedness. I have nothing against transgendered people, or anyone living an alternative lifestyle. I do however, have something against stalker-type PNM's.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by jon1856

As I posted above, one of my pledge Brothers DID did go through the process; way after graduation.

My Brother is STILL listed as an active Brother; just with a new name.
National had to know something about it.

Possibly not -- those directories are handled through third party companies. They may sell their name and address lists back to your National. I really doubt they are aware over there (or want to be aware) of this alumnus' gender reassignment.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'd think they'd be given the boot. Our rules clearly specify that a member "must be a man." They do not say "must be a man at the time of initiation" or anything like that. It stands to reason that if they are no longer a man, they are also no longer a member.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'm sure all fraternities have means by which a member can be expelled. If a member ceases to meet the minimum requirements which a member must meet, PC or not, they're gone. For us, there are other automatic expulsion rules (like being convicted of a felony, failing to pay dues, etc.)

My interpretation is a literal one -- if one's gender is physically changed, that person, nor the state, nor anyone else views it as a genital mutilation. They view it as gender reassignment.

Far be it from me to tell your fraternity how to treat this situation. How would mine handle it? If you're not a man, you're not a member. Easy.

I don't think a largely conservative, old, traditional organization such as mine is going to wiggle around with shifting definitions of gender so that we can keep a person on the membership roster after gender reassignment. They'll just be out.

Kevin;
I generally agree with what you post. However your postings here raise questions:
Are these your POV's, your chapter POV's, or your National POV's/rules/regulations?
And if they are your Nationals, are these your interpretations or are they direct from your National?

And are you referring to undergrad membership or alumni? Or both?

As I posted, I had pledge brother under-go a change, as an alumni.

While others knew about it, I found out while going thought Alumni records from National. Which means, at least,
1)Some data entry person received my Brothers formal request to change name, address, and phone number (among other data including at least one bit of information NOT found in general data bases).
2) My Brother changed it on his own and no one noticed it. However, as I pointed out, my Brothers' change is not a secret.
On the other hand, I do not locate the name of a EX-Brother, different chapter, who I know committed a felony. And is now serving hard time for it.

[Drolefille]

He did say "I think"