Bad teachers or the system

[Dionysus]

Spankings are overrated and are not the magic bullet like so many people claim. I got MANY as a kid, and I still misbehaved.

[1908Revelations]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

Spankings are overrated and are not the magic bullet like so many people claim. I got MANY as a kid, and I still misbehaved.

I don't think spankings are a magic bullet, but parents have to find consequences that work for their child. I didn't get many spnakings, b/c I knew what was expected of me and the consequence I would be choosing should I misbehave.

[KSig RC]

We have a large number of teachers here on Greekchat, so hopefully we can draw some out here . . . unfortunately, I think my points won't really resonate well with them. That's fine - tell me where I'm wrong and we'll go from there.

First, I feel like most complaints I hear about NCLB are both baseless and misdirected. Forcing teacher (and student) accountability is not a problem in and of itself - and while there are certainly some well-documented issues with standardized testing, no one will disagree that there should be some measurement of success on the part of both the student and the teacher.

Second, teachers probably do not get enough support - but that support must come from the school and administration. Parents are not always a reliable source of educational support, and this is not a new phenomenon.

Third, teachers may be slightly underpaid, but it is not an endemic problem - however, we can't have it both ways. By this I mean that if we pay teachers like insurance adjusters, we should expect the quality of college grad that becomes a teacher to approximately equal that of an insurance adjuster. Most MENSA candidates can find much more lucrative employment than teaching - it's a catch-22. At no point in past history were teachers paid the same as doctors, lawyers, or CEOs - to pretend otherwise is insane. Also, teaching is not a 12-month-a-year job for the overwhelming majority of teachers, no matter how much planning time you require personally - this has to be considered. I'm sorry, teachers, but it does.

I would argue that the largest problem with our current school system setup is that it is top-heavy - there are too many superfluous administrators, and they are largely inept at dealing with actual problems. It is a sea of red tape and middle management, with very little of this time or money filtering to the teachers (and thus students).

School funding is not as much of a problem as school spending.

This is similar to problems with failing companies in the private sector - there are entire industries dedicated to consulting and saving these types of companies. There are methods and lessons out there.

NCLB is not the problem.

[1908Revelations]

KSig RC, let me ask what you think about ESL/ELL (English Language Learners) taking standardized test?

The students go to their ESL/ELL classes, but when they take standardized test they are not allowed any help. That is a part of the inclusion of ALL atudents that NCLB brought. Many of the students who would be able to recieve more help in self-contained classrooms are not getting more focused help in the general ed classrooms. These students take the standardized test and often fail them miserably. It is not that the ESL/ELL students are stupid, but they do not understand what is on the test. We can't blame the ESL/ELL teachers b/c the students are only with the teacher for a portion of the day. When they go home they are likely speaking which ever is thier native language, not to mention they are speaking these languages all summer. Many of the ESL/ELL students know functional English which is not good enough for testing. The horrible test scored are factored in with the rest of the school and then some schools can't meet AYP goals.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by 1908Revelations

KSig RC, let me ask what you think about ESL/ELL (English Language Learners) taking standardized test?

The students go to their ESL/ELL classes, but when they take standardized test they are not allowed any help. That is a part of the inclusion of ALL atudents that NCLB brought. Many of the students who would be able to recieve more help in self-contained classrooms are not getting more focused help in the general ed classrooms. These students take the standardized test and often fail them miserably. It is not that the ESL/ELL students are stupid, but they do not understand what is on the test. We can't blame the ESL/ELL teachers b/c the students are only with the teacher for a portion of the day. When they go home they are likely speaking which ever is thier native language, not to mention they are speaking these languages all summer. Many of the ESL/ELL students know functional English which is not good enough for testing. The horrible test scored are factored in with the rest of the school and then some schools can't meet AYP goals.

I agree that this portion may need rethinking - however, I think there are multiple issues here. First, we may need to rethink our definitions of "functional" English, and whether ESL classes are structured properly to encourage their desired outcome (which should be 'mastery of English for education and living' - note 'education' there).

Second, according to the stated goals of NCLB, these statistics are included both as part of the overall school, and then also broken out by race and ESL status for reporting purposes. If focus and funding do not recognize this, it's obviously a problem with how NCLB is being implemented (and how the district is responding).

This creates a chicken-and-egg scenario, I'll agree - it's hard to say whether testing creates a problem or identifies a problem, but I can see how this specific scenario is troubling. However, it's not hopeless.

[SydneyK]

Isn't it the system's responsibility to ensure it hires non-bad teachers? (I'd say good teachers, but there's a gap between good and bad teachers and I want to include the teachers in said gap.)

If so, then it's the system's fault regardless.

[Taualumna]

It's not the teachers, it's the parents. We don't have as much "family time" as we used to. Kids often eat dinner at different times, and spend weekends playing sports or taking lessons. As they get older, they "go and hang out." Parents are also so protective of their kids' feelings that they don't care that their children are failing. They don't want their children to know that they're dumb. And since teachers don't want to be fired, they listen to what the 'rents want.

[Kevlar281]

“My son is eighteen and he can’t read.”

Who the hell would blame a teacher for this? My mother taught me how to read at age three. If your child can’t read blame yourself not a public educator.

[madmax]

Everyone knows the problem but they can't say it because Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson will show up. The problem is the Democrats. They don't take care of their kids. They don't stress education. Half the kids don't even know their parents. Their fathers are in jail and their mothers are turning tricks. The kids grow up with their 30 year old grandmothers and they end up mad at the world. When it comes time to go to school the kids are not interested in learing and they don't respect authority. They slack off and figure they are going to the NBA and if that doesn't work out they can cut a rap album. If I told my father I was going to be a rapper he would slap me in the head and tell me to go out and rap on some doors and get a job.

[Educatingblue]

Originally Posted by 1908Revelations

KSig RC, let me ask what you think about ESL/ELL (English Language Learners) taking standardized test?

The students go to their ESL/ELL classes, but when they take standardized test they are not allowed any help. That is a part of the inclusion of ALL atudents that NCLB brought. Many of the students who would be able to recieve more help in self-contained classrooms are not getting more focused help in the general ed classrooms. These students take the standardized test and often fail them miserably.

I am glad you brought this up 1908. I am a 3rd year teacher and from what I have seen, many new teachers are given lower level students along with ESL students. About 30% of my students are ESL and this is their first year taking any type of standardized test. They do not perform on grade level and I don't expect them to considering they have not yet mastered the language.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

We have a large number of teachers here on Greekchat, so hopefully we can draw some out here . . . unfortunately, I think my points won't really resonate well with them. That's fine - tell me where I'm wrong and we'll go from there.

First, I feel like most complaints I hear about NCLB are both baseless and misdirected. Forcing teacher (and student) accountability is not a problem in and of itself - and while there are certainly some well-documented issues with standardized testing, no one will disagree that there should be some measurement of success on the part of both the student and the teacher.

Second, teachers probably do not get enough support - but that support must come from the school and administration. Parents are not always a reliable source of educational support, and this is not a new phenomenon.

Third, teachers may be slightly underpaid, but it is not an endemic problem - however, we can't have it both ways. By this I mean that if we pay teachers like insurance adjusters, we should expect the quality of college grad that becomes a teacher to approximately equal that of an insurance adjuster. Most MENSA candidates can find much more lucrative employment than teaching - it's a catch-22. At no point in past history were teachers paid the same as doctors, lawyers, or CEOs - to pretend otherwise is insane. Also, teaching is not a 12-month-a-year job for the overwhelming majority of teachers, no matter how much planning time you require personally - this has to be considered. I'm sorry, teachers, but it does.

I would argue that the largest problem with our current school system setup is that it is top-heavy - there are too many superfluous administrators, and they are largely inept at dealing with actual problems. It is a sea of red tape and middle management, with very little of this time or money filtering to the teachers (and thus students).

School funding is not as much of a problem as school spending.

This is similar to problems with failing companies in the private sector - there are entire industries dedicated to consulting and saving these types of companies. There are methods and lessons out there.

NCLB is not the problem.

NCLB may not be the problem. But, it is not the solution that its backers made it out to be. Yes, my students who just moved here a year ago are going to take the tests. Do my students have the 'social' language skills? For the most part, yes. Do they have the 'academic' language? No, they are still working on their academic language. Will I be held accountable by my principal and the district? Yes. It does not matter that they will be broken down statistically. If they fail, that will be averaged in, no matter what.

PS - lol - I replied to all of your points. For some reason they did not stay in between the quotes. I will re-state my positions later.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

NCLB may not be the problem. But, it is not the solution that its backers made it out to be. Yes, my students who just moved here a year ago are going to take the tests. Do my students have the 'social' language skills? For the most part, yes. Do they have the 'academic' language? No, they are still working on their academic language. Will I be held accountable by my principal and the district? Yes. It does not matter that they will be broken down statistically. If they fail, that will be averaged in, no matter what.

I don't dispute this point - I addressed it in a previous point.

This fits both the "well-documented issues with standardized tests" (as in, problems with non-native/minority populations and test aptitude) and "specific cases" (as per the statistical inclusion).

However, I will reiterate - I see two main issues here: 1) why are there no separate standards for ESL/ELL testing (surely those in special ed are not counted?) and 2) perhaps reevaluating the goal of ESL/ELL classes (that is, what defines functional mastery of English) would be useful, although that utility should be viewed in light of the student (and not the test).

[1908Revelations]

Mastery of English would be wonderful, but like I said for many students speaking English ends at school. So the entire weekend is spent speaking another language and the entire summer. Some of the parents can not speak any English nor do they attend some of the English workshops offered by the district. So if the students and parents do not follow through then mastery of any language will fail.

Correct me if I am worng, but special ed scores are included in many standardized testing (for AYP)? I think they are....I will have to get back to you on that. MzDiscreet where are you ma'am?

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

We have a large number of teachers here on Greekchat, so hopefully we can draw some out here . . . unfortunately, I think my points won't really resonate well with them. That's fine - tell me where I'm wrong and we'll go from there.

First, I feel like most complaints I hear about NCLB are both baseless and misdirected. Forcing teacher (and student) accountability is not a problem in and of itself - and while there are certainly some well-documented issues with standardized testing, no one will disagree that there should be some measurement of success on the part of both the student and the teacher.

Second, teachers probably do not get enough support - but that support must come from the school and administration. Parents are not always a reliable source of educational support, and this is not a new phenomenon.

Third, teachers may be slightly underpaid, but it is not an endemic problem - however, we can't have it both ways. By this I mean that if we pay teachers like insurance adjusters, we should expect the quality of college grad that becomes a teacher to approximately equal that of an insurance adjuster. Most MENSA candidates can find much more lucrative employment than teaching - it's a catch-22. At no point in past history were teachers paid the same as doctors, lawyers, or CEOs - to pretend otherwise is insane. Also, teaching is not a 12-month-a-year job for the overwhelming majority of teachers, no matter how much planning time you require personally - this has to be considered. I'm sorry, teachers, but it does.

I would argue that the largest problem with our current school system setup is that it is top-heavy - there are too many superfluous administrators, and they are largely inept at dealing with actual problems. It is a sea of red tape and middle management, with very little of this time or money filtering to the teachers (and thus students).

School funding is not as much of a problem as school spending.

This is similar to problems with failing companies in the private sector - there are entire industries dedicated to consulting and saving these types of companies. There are methods and lessons out there.

NCLB is not the problem.

Agree completely.

I think bad teachers do scapegoat bad parents, but I still think bad parenting is where it starts. You're right, other sources have as much or more influence, and my response would be, how does that happen? My parents simply wouldn't allow me to get tangled up with bad influences within my peer group. Parents aren't helpless when it comes to what influences their children. They probably do seek out other influences, especially when their parents are completely irresponsible and never around.

[ASUADPi]

Am I the first teacher to reply?

NCLB- I personally find NCLB a crock of crap. It's all great in theory to "leave no child behind" the problem is there is absolutely no funding behind it. How can I possibly not leave a child behind when it is just me in a class of 21 first graders. I have 2-3 speds (1 is about to be tested that is why I say three). I have about 7 ELL's. I have 8 kids who are low-low. I have 9 or so below or at grade level and only 8 above grade level. I'm by myself. I can honestly only do so much. The only time my kids get any one on one time with me is when I have to progress moniter them on DIBELS (ORF-oral reading fluency). It's so sad. Then the sped kids. According to NCLB ALL kids must be at grade level. That is a retarded thing to want considering there is a population of students in our country who have IEP's (individualized education plans) and they will NEVER be on grade level. To hold that expectation of them and the teacher is insane! One of my sped kids will NEVER be on grade level. He doesn't retain the knowledge. He can barely sing his alphabet. He is at a pre-primer level (that is below kindergarten and I teach 1st).

Funding- Well I just happen to live in the state that is number 50 when it comes to teacher pay and funding. Enough said. I can't do much when the state doesn't spend what it should on kids. As a teacher I get $50 at the beginning of the school year to buy supplies. 50 dollars, that doesn't buy jack. I've probably spent more than 2 grand of my own money in the last 3 years of teaching. That is the only way to get the supplies for my kids that they need. 99% of the stuff in my room, I've bought from my own money. Which sucks because I get paid pretty damn crappy in the first place.

Pay- The notion that my eduction isn't as much as others is dumb. To keep our certificate a teacher has to do professional development hours. These are graduate level courses in the education field. These courses have to be approved by the district a teacher works at for professional development so that you can move up on the pay scale. While I did start out making 40K this year my raise is .05% which is down right pathetic. The only way I make more money is to get more and more education. But the increase in pay will be NOTHING compared to the money I will be spending on my education. Yes, I'm going to persue my education because I want to, but teachers shouldn't have to keep paying for graduate education so that they can get more money. Why is it that I'm supposedly teaching the "future of America". You know those future basketball, football, baseball players, yet I can barely make enough to live on my own? What is that about?

Support: I do have some great parents this year but administrative support could be better. My school is a school that hasn't made AYP for the last two years. We are in warning that the state might take us over. My principal and assistant principal try their hardest but they walked into a school that has problems. There are teachers who are more interested in causing dissention and non-cohesiveness. The middle schoolers have absolutely no discipline and will not hesistate to cuss out any teacher that comes within their path and they are told to do something they don't want to do. The kids suffer absolutely no consequences for their wretched behavior. The district is totally pacifist with how they treat the kids. The parents pretty much "own" the district. If a parent doesn't like what an administrator has told them they can walk right into district office and file a COMPLAINT!! I can't even do that as a teacher! These parents have more power than me! I don't want to sound like a bitch, but who has the education? Who is here to teach your child? If it wasn't for me, there wouldn't be a teacher in this room. The same goes for other teachers.
Now its not to say that this is a statewide problem it probably isn't. But I'm sure other teachers and other districts in my state are suffering from the same issues.

Don't get me wrong there are definately bad teachers. Hell I work with a bad teacher in my grade level and there are at least 4 more in my school alone. The problem is these people have been teaching forever and the district, up until this year, would have to go through tons of hoops to get rid of a teacher. The superintendent just made it easier for principals, this year, to fire teachers that aren't doing their jobs or bringing morale down at the schools. We shouldn't keep teachers for the sake of keeping teachers.