Katrina, and the UN

[valkyrie]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

I've taken the excuses and bolded them. I've taken the things that are 100% your hypothetical fault and underlined them. In this situation, it was your own decision not to go to school. It was your own decision not to read. You were presented with the information that you mom was an effup, and you did nothing to make sure the same thing didn't happen to you.

The thing is, you're looking at the situation from your own perspective. From where you sit in your cushy little life, it's easy to say what is someone's "fault" and what is an "excuse." I mean, come on -- "it was your own decision not to go to school" -- WTF? Because a 10 year old should be held accountable for not going to school when mommy doesn't make him? A little kid can determine that his mom is an "effup" and ensure that he doesn't grow up the same way? If mom being an "effup" and you not going to school is all you have known for your entire life and you do not have the perspective of someone who has enjoyed relative privilege, such as ktsnake how do you even KNOW that there is an alternative, much less how to make it happen?

I don't know -- it's pretty clear that you've seen the worst of people who've been screwups or who've taken advantage of the system. Sometimes, there are people whose lives are SO jacked from SUCH a young age that it's nearly impossible for them to achieve the level of success you seem to think is possible.

Someone else mentioned the "lazy, ignorant people" who stayed in N.O. during Katrina -- I would find it VERY hard to believe that most of the people who stayed did so because they were lazy or ignorant. If you're really poor, you don't have a car. You don't have money for bus tickets. You don't have money to pay for a hotel somewhere or to eat at restaurants or do whatever you have to do to survive after leaving home. WTF are you supposed to do?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by valkyrie

The thing is, you're looking at the situation from your own perspective. From where you sit in your cushy little life, it's easy to say what is someone's "fault" and what is an "excuse." I mean, come on -- "it was your own decision not to go to school" -- WTF? Because a 10 year old should be held accountable for not going to school when mommy doesn't make him?

Okay -- whose fault is it? Who ultimately suffers? Have you never met a self-determined 10-year-old? I see these myths debunked on an almost daily basis. My wife teaches in a school that actively recruits kids from our local failing public schools, and has an intensive program to get them to college. More than half are minorities, 3/4 of them are on free lunch programs, most come from broken families, most are first generation college, and quite a few of them have parents who are screwups/junkies/etc. These kids motivate themselves to attend a high school that can't afford to air condition itself, works their kids butts off (they offer only Advanced Placement courses), and they get into college.

Some of the kids they get require a lot of remediation because their previous schools had failed them, and they have the AVID program for that. These kids get it though. They, for the most part understand that if they want to have a better life, that's 100% on them. There are no victims.

all you have known for your entire life and you do not have the perspective of someone who has enjoyed relative privilege, such as ktsnake

By the way, these types of schools are becoming more and more common throughout the U.S. So I do know for a fact that there is a choice, and I know for a fact that there are quite a few kids that do avail themselves of these types of opportunities.

I don't know -- it's pretty clear that you've seen the worst of people who've been screwups or who've taken advantage of the system. Sometimes, there are people whose lives are SO jacked from SUCH a young age that it's nearly impossible for them to achieve the level of success you seem to think is possible.

I don't believe that's possible. I think someone has to give up before they can be a failure. I believe that we can all overcome whatever obstacle life throws in our way so long as we are physically and mentally able. I do believe that society has a duty to take care of its physically and mentally infirm. Beyond that though? I think people ought to be responsible for their own lives as much as possible. There should of course be assistance for those who want to improve their lives (student loans, job corps, remedial education programs), but otherwise, I'm not a big fan of the welfare system.

Someone else mentioned the "lazy, ignorant people" who stayed in N.O. during Katrina -- I would find it VERY hard to believe that most of the people who stayed did so because they were lazy or ignorant. If you're really poor, you don't have a car. You don't have money for bus tickets. You don't have money to pay for a hotel somewhere or to eat at restaurants or do whatever you have to do to survive after leaving home. WTF are you supposed to do?

One cannot become poor unless one decides that being too poor to own a car is okay. Living below sea level during hurricane season and not having a means of escape is very lazy/ignorant.

[f8nacn]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

One cannot become poor unless one decides that being too poor to own a car is okay. Living below sea level during hurricane season and not having a means of escape is very lazy/ignorant.

You honestly believe that???

[shinerbock]

Regardless of how people became poor, what do you propose we do about it? I don't blame poor people entirely, I realize they have obstacles. Of course, it can be overcome with the right amount of effort, but I know they sometimes have the deck stacked against them. However, regardless, I still don't see it as the government's job. The blame on people in New Orleans didn't really begin until they began to blame their government. What happened was a tragedy. We'll learn from it, but when I hear the black community place the fault on the administration, it makes me less sympathetic.

[f8nacn]

I believe that there are already (as mentioned by another poster) programs available that would enable a person to establish a better way of life for them. It's up to those people to access such programs. And I agree blaming the government for a lack of programs is not just nor does it have merit.

However, with Hurricane Katrina, I wouldn't necessarily cast total blame on the government either. I believe they made some mistakes but I can't blame them for TOTAL misfortune and tragedy! It wasn't just the black community placing blame on the administration, it was also caucasians who were affected as well. You saw a predominance of black people; however, there were others in the mix. Because I'm sure Slidell has a heavy caucasian population and not black.

[shinerbock]

Well, I'm sure white people were frustrated as well, but its not the individuals who were involved that really irks me. Its the disconnected folks, like the NAACP, and other organizations who acted as though Bush and co. made a decision to abandon the city.

[f8nacn]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Well, I'm sure white people were frustrated as well, but its not the individuals who were involved that really irks me. Its the disconnected folks, like the NAACP, and other organizations who acted as though Bush and co. made a decision to abandon the city.

So are you upset because someone gave them (NAACP) the authority to speak on their (the black community) behalf? And no one spoke up for "caucasians"?

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by f8nacn

I believe that there are already (as mentioned by another poster) programs available that would enable a person to establish a better way of life for them. It's up to those people to access such programs. And I agree blaming the government for a lack of programs is not just nor does it have merit.

However, with Hurricane Katrina, I wouldn't necessarily cast total blame on the government either. I believe they made some mistakes but I can't blame them for TOTAL misfortune and tragedy! It wasn't just the black community placing blame on the administration, it was also caucasians who were affected as well. You saw a predominance of black people; however, there were others in the mix. Because I'm sure Slidell has a heavy caucasian population and not black.

There is no doubt in my mind that there were white people who were upset and spoke out about the breakdown of the state and local goverment and the fact that the FEMA director was a moron. But, you didn't see it on the same level as you saw the outcry from the black community.....who pretty much blamed everything on Bush. The black community loved Nagin, and I don't think they took the time to realize that he was at fault probobly the most out of anyone.

[f8nacn]

Of course any possibility to make the Black community look idiotic and like free-loaders, the media will jump on that...I'm sure there were complaints and the like by our counterparts.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by f8nacn

You honestly believe that???

I can't see any other alternative. It's harsh, but you can make excuses for failure all you want. At the end of the day, it's still failure.

[f8nacn]

I agree with you...in the end it is about personal choice! It's about deciding whether you will continue to be in the minority or if you will be in the top percentage of Americans - those who are working, aiming for a better life, and "struggling" as I say to pay bills and make ends meet from month to month. Of course, as stated above, again, it is about personal choice! I can't refute you on that.

[shinerbock]

Back to the sub-argument about minimum wage, the 2 dollar minimum wage hike failed in the Senate.

Unfortunately though, so did reductions to the death (estate) tax...

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Back to the sub-argument about minimum wage, the 2 dollar minimum wage hike failed in the Senate.

Unfortunately though, so did reductions to the death (estate) tax...

I'd be all for any kind of tax cut as long as we could figure out first where we were going to cut the spending to pay for the tax cut. As it stands, the estate tax was only going to affect estates valued at over 2 million dollars. I know that the rich share a disproportionate amount of the tax burden, and I strongly believe that they should be the first to receive tax cuts, but before we cut taxes anywhere, we need to find some federal spending to cut at the same time.

An 8.5 trillion dollar deficit is going to catch up with us one of these days.

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Back to the sub-argument about minimum wage, the 2 dollar minimum wage hike failed in the Senate.

Unfortunately though, so did reductions to the death (estate) tax...

Yeah I'm going to cry for the multi-billionaire .0000001% of the US population that is so hurt by that.

-Rudey