Katrina, and the UN

[Kevin]

I'd think to myself... gosh.. if I hadn't dropped out of high school and had 5 babies so I could receive extra TANF benefits, I might have been able to afford a car and get out of here.

Or something to that effect.

Poverty is a choice. Sure, some because of their backgrounds are at a huge disadvantage, but there is still every opportunity for success. If you spend your entire life expecting somoene else to provide for you, from time to time, you'll be let down.

[f8nacn]

And just how ignorant are you! You are casting generalizations that are not entirely true for an entire community/people. We don't know individual circumstances of "all people"....you can't cast judgment on things that you have know knowledge about.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by f8nacn

And just how ignorant are you! You are casting generalizations that are not entirely true for an entire community/people. We don't know individual circumstances of "all people"....you can't cast judgment on things that you have know knowledge about.

Do all people have free will? I think yes -- and yes, that's a generalization. All of us of able mind and body have free will. That means that we can either take advantage of opportunities, or we can fail to. Any reason given for failing to take advantage of an opportunity is nothing more than an excuse.

How many of the unemployed people of New Orleans are still unemployed even when construction firms are bringing in as many laborers as they can possibly scrounge up from other states?

[valkyrie]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

Do all people have free will? I think yes -- and yes, that's a generalization. All of us of able mind and body have free will. That means that we can either take advantage of opportunities, or we can fail to. Any reason given for failing to take advantage of an opportunity is nothing more than an excuse.

How many of the unemployed people of New Orleans are still unemployed even when construction firms are bringing in as many laborers as they can possibly scrounge up from other states?

Let's say my mom had me when she was 15 and addicted to crack, and has been abusive or absent since then. We live in the projects and I never finished high school and can't read, because when I was a kid my mom resented me more than anything and didn't give a shit if I went to school. Most of the time I was hungry, and I might have some form of mental illness and possibly diabetes, but nobody ever took me to the doctor so to you and everyone, I have "able mind and body." Now I'm 20. I have no education or skills. Please tell me what opportunities I have.

It's all well and good to talk about opportunities. You and I have had plenty of them and have taken advantage. That doesn't mean everybody has been so fortunate.

Here's what I don't understand, though. Say your home and everything around it was destroyed by Katrina and then you rebuild. Is it reasonable to expect any assistance if your home and everything around it is destroyed by a hurricane again in the future? Even I would say "no" to that.

[f8nacn]

Originally Posted by valkyrie

Let's say my mom had me when she was 15 and addicted to crack, and has been abusive or absent since then. We live in the projects and I never finished high school and can't read, because when I was a kid my mom resented me more than anything and didn't give a shit if I went to school. Most of the time I was hungry, and I might have some form of mental illness and possibly diabetes, but nobody ever took me to the doctor so to you and everyone, I have "able mind and body." Now I'm 20. I have no education or skills. Please tell me what opportunities I have.

It's all well and good to talk about opportunities. You and I have had plenty of them and have taken advantage. That doesn't mean everybody has been so fortunate.

Here's what I don't understand, though. Say your home and everything around it was destroyed by Katrina and then you rebuild. Is it reasonable to expect any assistance if your home and everything around it is destroyed by a hurricane again in the future? Even I would say "no" to that.

The first two paragraphs were very REAL and valid arguments. The same could be considered around the coastal areas of other US States...they rebuild to a higher level of flood resistance...

[shinerbock]

Plenty of people overcome obstacles and hardships on their way to success.

Regarding New Orleans, it is a completely different situation involving rebuilding. Much of the city expects to be rebuilt by the government, which is absurd. It is a much different situation from a hurricane striking the Florida panhandle, where people rebuild for themselves, because they have the ability to do so.

[f8nacn]

Are those sections of the government that are expected by rebuilt by the government, government controlled land. The last I heard was sections of the town were being sold to independent developers, which in turn, would result in those who lost their homes during Katrina wouldn't be able to afford to come back to those areas anyway.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by valkyrie

Let's say my mom had me when she was 15 and addicted to crack, and has been abusive or absent since then. We live in the projects andI never finished high school and can't read, because when I was a kid my mom resented me more than anything and didn't give a shit if I went to school. Most of the time I was hungry, and I might have some form of mental illness and possibly diabetes, but nobody ever took me to the doctor so to you and everyone, I have "able mind and body." Now I'm 20. I have no education or skills. Please tell me what opportunities I have.

I've taken the excuses and bolded them. I've taken the things that are 100% your hypothetical fault and underlined them. In this situation, it was your own decision not to go to school. It was your own decision not to read. You were presented with the information that you mom was an effup, and you did nothing to make sure the same thing didn't happen to you.

Even so, at the age of 20, Job Corps (link below) is available to you.

http://www.jobcorps.dol.gov/

Remedial education and a GED are also available. It may not be the most comfortable and easy thing to do getting out of that hole, but it's completely possible.

It's all well and good to talk about opportunities. You and I have had plenty of them and have taken advantage. That doesn't mean everybody has been so fortunate.

True. I was just looking up my best friend from grade school on the public access court docket system (in Oklahoma, the courts take public access to a whole new level). The guy was on drugs in HS, I knew his sister Overdosed and died. He's currently involved in a simultaneous divorce and paternity action, but to his credit, he's not in prison. The guys parents were loaded, and he definitely wasn't dumb. So yeah, even the 'fortunate' choose poverty. And I'm sure he's got a terrific sob story as well.. his siblings were on drugs, his parents got divorced, etc. etc.

-- all excuses.

Here's what I don't understand, though. Say your home and everything around it was destroyed by Katrina and then you rebuild. Is it reasonable to expect any assistance if your home and everything around it is destroyed by a hurricane again in the future? Even I would say "no" to that.

If I owned a home, I'd sure as hell have homeowner's insurance. You're crazy not to. If I lived below sea level, or on the coast, I'd sure as hell have flood insurance. Living in Oklahoma, I'm going to carry tornado insurance.

I don't "expect" help from anyone. I don't think it's reasonable to "expect" people to give me things for free. I know that a lot of folks do expect these things, but as I said before, if you go through life expecting someone else to provide for you, eventually, you'll be let down.

[f8nacn]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

If I owned a home, I'd sure as hell have homeowner's insurance. You're crazy not to. If I lived below sea level, or on the coast, I'd sure as hell have flood insurance. Living in Oklahoma, I'm going to carry tornado insurance.

I don't "expect" help from anyone. I don't think it's reasonable to "expect" people to give me things for free. I know that a lot of folks do expect these things, but as I said before, if you go through life expecting someone else to provide for you, eventually, you'll be let down.

And let us remember that there are people in the United States who are attempting to make it, not relying on the government for anything, yet those people are making minimum wage (which is a laughing stock) and they are barely making ends meet. They aren't "expecting" anything from anyone, yet they are STILL STRUGGLING to make ends meet. I know, what we would call, "wealthy" people who are still struggling to make ends met. What is wealth and prosperity if knowing at the end of the month or in between pay cycles one only has .05 to his name, yet they are the ones driving the luxury - overly expensive vehicles, living in the best neighborhoods?

There is a struggle on every economic class - it is not just the poorer than poor - its every day people who are working to make ends meet daily!

[shinerbock]

I imagine some of the things that happened during Katrina were WORSE than how the media portrayed them.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by f8nacn

And let us remember that there are people in the United States who are attempting to make it, not relying on the government for anything, yet those people are making minimum wage (which is a laughing stock) and they are barely making ends meet. They aren't "expecting" anything from anyone, yet they are STILL STRUGGLING to make ends meet. I know, what we would call, "wealthy" people who are still struggling to make ends met. What is wealth and prosperity if knowing at the end of the month or in between pay cycles one only has .05 to his name, yet they are the ones driving the luxury - overly expensive vehicles, living in the best neighborhoods?

There is a struggle on every economic class - it is not just the poorer than poor - its every day people who are working to make ends meet daily!

These people you know aren't what would I would wealthy at all. They sound like people I know that live beyond their means and run up credit card dept on multiple cards with multiple banks.....and they sure as hell aren't prosperous.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by f8nacn

And let us remember that there are people in the United States who are attempting to make it, not relying on the government for anything, yet those people are making minimum wage (which is a laughing stock) and they are barely making ends meet. They aren't "expecting" anything from anyone, yet they are STILL STRUGGLING to make ends meet. I know, what we would call, "wealthy" people who are still struggling to make ends met. What is wealth and prosperity if knowing at the end of the month or in between pay cycles one only has .05 to his name, yet they are the ones driving the luxury - overly expensive vehicles, living in the best neighborhoods?

There is a struggle on every economic class - it is not just the poorer than poor - its every day people who are working to make ends meet daily!

What is your point? That we all have to do stuff to get stuff? Is that what passes for a 'struggle' these days? It's a dramatic as heck word. I still contend that the very fact that someone is working a minimum wage job is their own fault. You don't end up as an adult with no marketable skills without having any input into the situation yourself. It was an option to finish high school and then go to some college/votech program to learn marketable skills. There may have been an apprenticeship position somewhere. Job Corps is available. Yeah, I guess they all require you to do stuff in order to get stuff and thus "struggle," but really.. so what? Am I supposed to feel sorry for some idiot who chose to drop out of high school and have babies thinking that their job at White Castle would provide?

And actually, if they weren't taking care of things themselves, e.g., owning a car, having flood insurance, etc., then they were relying on someone else. New Orleans has flooded before. Everyone who lives there knows or should know that the levee system is inadequate for some storms. Everyone knew or should have known that such a storm was a decent possibility. Therefore, if they weren't prepared for the eventuality of a storm, then they were expecting someone else to be prepared for them. There is no truth to your statement that they weren't dependant on someone else. Show me one minimum wage worker that isn't also receiving some sort of government benefit -- TANF, WIC, Section 8 Housing, etc.

[valkyrie]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

I've taken the excuses and bolded them. I've taken the things that are 100% your hypothetical fault and underlined them. In this situation, it was your own decision not to go to school. It was your own decision not to read. You were presented with the information that you mom was an effup, and you did nothing to make sure the same thing didn't happen to you.

The thing is, you're looking at the situation from your own perspective. From where you sit in your cushy little life, it's easy to say what is someone's "fault" and what is an "excuse." I mean, come on -- "it was your own decision not to go to school" -- WTF? Because a 10 year old should be held accountable for not going to school when mommy doesn't make him? A little kid can determine that his mom is an "effup" and ensure that he doesn't grow up the same way? If mom being an "effup" and you not going to school is all you have known for your entire life and you do not have the perspective of someone who has enjoyed relative privilege, such as ktsnake how do you even KNOW that there is an alternative, much less how to make it happen?

I don't know -- it's pretty clear that you've seen the worst of people who've been screwups or who've taken advantage of the system. Sometimes, there are people whose lives are SO jacked from SUCH a young age that it's nearly impossible for them to achieve the level of success you seem to think is possible.

Someone else mentioned the "lazy, ignorant people" who stayed in N.O. during Katrina -- I would find it VERY hard to believe that most of the people who stayed did so because they were lazy or ignorant. If you're really poor, you don't have a car. You don't have money for bus tickets. You don't have money to pay for a hotel somewhere or to eat at restaurants or do whatever you have to do to survive after leaving home. WTF are you supposed to do?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by valkyrie

The thing is, you're looking at the situation from your own perspective. From where you sit in your cushy little life, it's easy to say what is someone's "fault" and what is an "excuse." I mean, come on -- "it was your own decision not to go to school" -- WTF? Because a 10 year old should be held accountable for not going to school when mommy doesn't make him?

Okay -- whose fault is it? Who ultimately suffers? Have you never met a self-determined 10-year-old? I see these myths debunked on an almost daily basis. My wife teaches in a school that actively recruits kids from our local failing public schools, and has an intensive program to get them to college. More than half are minorities, 3/4 of them are on free lunch programs, most come from broken families, most are first generation college, and quite a few of them have parents who are screwups/junkies/etc. These kids motivate themselves to attend a high school that can't afford to air condition itself, works their kids butts off (they offer only Advanced Placement courses), and they get into college.

Some of the kids they get require a lot of remediation because their previous schools had failed them, and they have the AVID program for that. These kids get it though. They, for the most part understand that if they want to have a better life, that's 100% on them. There are no victims.

all you have known for your entire life and you do not have the perspective of someone who has enjoyed relative privilege, such as ktsnake

By the way, these types of schools are becoming more and more common throughout the U.S. So I do know for a fact that there is a choice, and I know for a fact that there are quite a few kids that do avail themselves of these types of opportunities.

I don't know -- it's pretty clear that you've seen the worst of people who've been screwups or who've taken advantage of the system. Sometimes, there are people whose lives are SO jacked from SUCH a young age that it's nearly impossible for them to achieve the level of success you seem to think is possible.

I don't believe that's possible. I think someone has to give up before they can be a failure. I believe that we can all overcome whatever obstacle life throws in our way so long as we are physically and mentally able. I do believe that society has a duty to take care of its physically and mentally infirm. Beyond that though? I think people ought to be responsible for their own lives as much as possible. There should of course be assistance for those who want to improve their lives (student loans, job corps, remedial education programs), but otherwise, I'm not a big fan of the welfare system.

Someone else mentioned the "lazy, ignorant people" who stayed in N.O. during Katrina -- I would find it VERY hard to believe that most of the people who stayed did so because they were lazy or ignorant. If you're really poor, you don't have a car. You don't have money for bus tickets. You don't have money to pay for a hotel somewhere or to eat at restaurants or do whatever you have to do to survive after leaving home. WTF are you supposed to do?

One cannot become poor unless one decides that being too poor to own a car is okay. Living below sea level during hurricane season and not having a means of escape is very lazy/ignorant.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

Poverty is a choice. Sure, some because of their backgrounds are at a huge disadvantage, but there is still every opportunity for success. If you spend your entire life expecting somoene else to provide for you, from time to time, you'll be let down.

That's a harsh statement. There may be every opportunity for success in some places, but come to Michigan and see how many of these opportunities there are. But I do agree with your last sentence.