any "nice" conservatives out there?

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Rudey
Did she say all Muslim nations throughout the world or did she mention just a couple like Iran?

Her exact quote:

all of the Muslim nations do not have freedom of religion

[kddani]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
Well, to me it's clear that, as nowhere in any of our founding documents does it say or even imply that the U.S. is intended to be a Christian nation, our founders as a whole decided that it was best that this country should not be a Christian nation. But maybe that's a leap.

Oh, I certainly agree with you.

And it's much easier to prove that something IS something than proving something IS NOT something.

So, if indeed the US was founded as a Christian nation, then certainly there would be an abundance of documents and other evidence to support that. So far none have been found by anyone here!

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

And, as a quick lesson for Conniebama, here is why you need to GIVE CITATIONS and keep context in mind.

This quote comes from the following letter written by Adams:



Twenty times, in the course of my late Reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible Worlds, if there were no Religion in it!!!" But in this exclamati[on] I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell. So far from believing in the total and universal depravity of human Nature; I believe there is no Individual totally depraved. The most abandoned Scoundrel that ever existed, never Yet Wholly extinguished his Conscience, and while Conscience remains there is some Religion. Popes, Jesuits and Sorbonists and Inquisitors have some Conscience and some Religion. So had Marius and Sylla, Caesar Cataline and Anthony, an Augustus had not much more, let Virgil and Horace say what they will.

(Excerpt of letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817 -- John Adams, quoted from Charles Francis Adams, ed., Works of John Adams (1856), vol. X, p. 254; The Adams Jefferson Letters, The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, Edited by Lester J. Cappon, University of North Carolina Press (1959, 1987) p.509)


This letter was part of a series of such letters between Jefferson and Adams, in which Adams spoke largely of his views on Christianity and Jefferson spoke of his disillusionment with organized religions. Note the date - this quotation is from 40 years after the framing of the Declaration of Independence and 30 years after the Constitution, making it wholly irrelevant when commenting on the frame of mind of the framers with regard to the nation's founding.

Here's a hint, Connie - many of your quotations have similar endemic flaws. This is not, and never has been, a Christian nation.

Originally posted by sugar and spice
The following quotes have been attributed to the following founding fathers and early U.S. leaders:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies." - Benjamin Franklin

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - James Madison

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. " - Thomas Paine


Apparently they couldn't come to any conclusions on that whole "Christian nation" thing . . .

Which is why I said that we can't assume that because SOME of the founders were Christians, the entire nation was meant to be.

[ADPi Conniebama]

I really don't understand what all or your problems are with living in a Christian nation. No, it doesn’t have to be in the Constitution to be factual. The truth is most of our nations forefathers were Christians (Presbyterians, Roman Catholic, Anglican, etc) And the constitution proved it with all of the freedoms and liberties that they knew at the time a nation would need in accordance with the BIBLE.

The reason why I keep waiting so long to reply is because I am getting bombarded with questions and statements, to which I felt I needed to respond. I do live in the real world and in the real world the rest of all of the countries in this world see the United States of America as a Christian nation. Just because we are a Christian nation doesn’t mean we . . . . Never-mind I was about to explain my original point again and I have decided that it would be a waste of my time.

I am sure ya’ll all lead happy and successful lives, but if you choose to allow one small statement that someone says over the internet get you this upset then ya’ll need to get a life. It is not your place to put me in my place (or attempt to) it is your place to sit there and read a post and agree or disagree with a statement. However, what you do from there defines your character on greek chat or anywhere.

If you choose to deny the Christian Heritage of this nation go for it. I will come back to read posts when I choose and if anyone else says anything remotely interesting I will respond otherwise have a wonderful week.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
I really don't understand what all or your problems are with living in a Christian nation. . . .
If you choose to deny the Christian Heritage of this nation go for it.

You're saying two different things here -- Christian nation and Christian heritage. The USA undeniably has a Christian heritage in that (1) the majority of its citizens have always been and (for now, at least) continue to be Christian, and (2) the values of those citizens have inevitably shaped national policy and national culture.

But this is not a "Christian nation" for the simple reason that, unlike in many European countries, no form of Christianity is established by law as the national or established religion. It's that simple.

[ADPi Conniebama]

I am not denying the "Establishment Clause."

[Rudey]

Let me summarize:

1) This thread was ridiculous in even its topic - it created a foundation that conservatives are "un-nice" and that the thread creator is out to look for the "nice" ones.

2) The United States does not have an official religion or language, but its history has really made it quite evident how much Christianity has played a role through every Great Awakening (supposedly we're in the midst of the 4th).

Did I cover everything? Is everyone happy?

-Rudey

[ADPi Conniebama]

Wow Rudey that was a very cleansing post.

Thank you for your insight and gift of summary.

[33girl]

Originally posted by Rudey
The United States does not have an official religion or language

Except for West Virginia.

I had to laugh that this came up on Yahoo news just as we were debating this.

[non-greek newby]

Originally posted by Rudey
Let me summarize:

1) This thread was ridiculous in even its topic - it created a foundation that conservatives are "un-nice" and that the thread creator is out to look for the "nice" ones.

-Rudey

::sigh:: I give up.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by non-greek newby
::sigh:: I give up.

Please do.

-Rudey

[TriDeltaGal]

Originally posted by WCUAXID
Why are there billboards in Spanish, why do ATM machines give you a choice of language. Why do I have to have some of my pay go to the education system only to fund a teacher to teach Spanish to American children?? Why does that teacher not teach English to the children who can not speak English?? We are not helping the illegal immigrants by catering to them, we are only making the situation worse. I don't care if we have millions of immigrants that come in on a daily basis, as long as they can speak English or are willing to go to classes to learn and that they are here legally!!

Umm, as a teacher here in CA, I know for a fact that students are rarely taught in their L1 (or primary language... remember not all illegal immigrants are SPANISH speaking, as the United States has a huge influx oF Asian illegal immigrants, comparable to the numbers coming from Central America) It is actually against the law in CA, to teach using bilingual instruction, as in accordance with Proposition 187; every few states actually allow bilingual instruction. Furthermore as a proponent of bilingual education, teaching students in English-only is not only ineffective in comparsion, but hinders student learning in other academic subjects. So, you can "rest assured" that the state (CA has half of the English Language Learners within the country within its education system) with the most ELL (English Langauge Learners), are NOT learning in Spanish!

You also speak of billboards and television channels in Spanish, well guess what, that has nothing to do with promoting their lack of English, but is soley based on ADVERTISING. So, you can speak to McDonald's and Coca-Cola, explaining to them that they should not nurture these people's use of Spanish. By the way, here in LA, we also have several Asian papers, television channels, and billboards in predominately Asian areas, so remember it's not just the evil "Spanish" speaking people.

In addition, you speak of all the "evils" of these people, however, let me assure you for every one "bad" illegal immigrant, there are ten more who bring their children to school everyday so they can excel and achieve as they go and scrub your floor, cut your grass, and pick your agriculture.

I respect your opinion for what it is worth and I know its not going to change your mind, but I have a little more factual knowledge on the subject.

Now off to write a billionth paper for class... damn grad school!

[bekibug]

Um, to "hijack" this thread back to the title/topic, I know several nice conservatives. In fact, most I know are nice. There's sort of an "agree-to-disagree" attitude there. It's always the few that are extreme and will not even tolerate another viewpoint that piss me off. They and the "I'm going to vote this way because Mom and Dad/all my friends are and anyone else is just wrong" people really get under my skin.

Like the guy that interrupted our guest speaker at our College Democrats meeting tonight. The speaker was former AL Gov. Don Siegelman. Agree with/like him or not, he was there to talk about reforming AL's constitution, not necessarily policy. But homeboy just had to interrupt him. I think he actually got more interview time with the campus paper and TV station after the meeting than Siegelman.

[WCUAXID]

Start Quote***
Umm, as a teacher here in CA, I know for a fact that students are rarely taught in their L1 (or primary language... remember not all illegal immigrants are SPANISH speaking, as the United States has a huge influx oF Asian illegal immigrants, comparable to the numbers coming from Central America) It is actually against the law in CA, to teach using bilingual instruction, as in accordance with Proposition 187; every few states actually allow bilingual instruction. Furthermore as a proponent of bilingual education, teaching students in English-only is not only ineffective in comparsion, but hinders student learning in other academic subjects. So, you can "rest assured" that the state (CA has half of the English Language Learners within the country within its education system) with the most ELL (English Langauge Learners), are NOT learning in Spanish!

You also speak of billboards and television channels in Spanish, well guess what, that has nothing to do with promoting their lack of English, but is soley based on ADVERTISING. So, you can speak to McDonald's and Coca-Cola, explaining to them that they should not nurture these people's use of Spanish. By the way, here in LA, we also have several Asian papers, television channels, and billboards in predominately Asian areas, so remember it's not just the evil "Spanish" speaking people.

In addition, you speak of all the "evils" of these people, however, let me assure you for every one "bad" illegal immigrant, there are ten more who bring their children to school everyday so they can excel and achieve as they go and scrub your floor, cut your grass, and pick your agriculture.

I respect your opinion for what it is worth and I know its not going to change your mind, but I have a little more factual knowledge on the subject.

Now off to write a billionth paper for class... damn grad school!
End Quote***

__________________
Ummm, never in my message did I talk about the "evils" of these people. In fact I believe I was suggesting that they come here legally and pay into the system so they can receive something back and so they are not taken advantage of by their employer and given 10 dollars for a days work and no health benefits. How is that evil???
Also you talk about "bad" illegal immigrants, well heck, there are "bad" people everywhere, it does not matter what your race is,and then again for every race there are good people. You do not have to be an illegal immigrant to clean floors or pick agriculture, there are other people who do this work as well and instill great values into their children as well.
Also, about the billboards in Spanish and the ATM machines in Spanish, I know that there are other illegals here beside the Spanish speaking. I only used that as an example as here in the south that is the majority of what crosses the boarder and stays. If you come to North Carolina I will show you all the billboards , magizines, newspapers, etc that are all in Spanish. We don't have any other language that is advertised or you have a choice to pick on the ATM machine...at least yet.
And I agree with you, learning two languages is a good thing. I have a friend that has a daughter that is 4 years old and already she can speak Spanish. Count to ten, knows her name, knows some phrases etc. and she is as smart as a whip!! However, my friend and her husband chose to send their daughter (and pay) for her to go to a montisorri(sp) school. I did not have to pay for her to learn this.
Whenever my husband and I have a child and they attend school I will be sending them to a Montisorri school so they can also learn a different language maybe Spanish or I can choose another language. But you see that is my choice. I don't think that I should have to pay for everyone elses children to learn Spanish.
Now don't get mad at me for saying that. This is America and it is a Capitilistic society. I shouldn't have to work hard to have things in life that I enjoy only to see Joe Schmo who dosen't do a thing enjoy the same that I have, that would be communism, and that would be wrong!!(at least for America)
I feel that there is not enough money in the education system as it stands already and unfortunatly the children have to feel this. I think that what money has been diverted for second language classes (which apparently is not in every school accross the nation) should be redirected into the arts. There are schools all over the nation that are hurting and are trying to keep the arts alive in their school system (although I do not know about CA but I would assume that they are hurting in the arts as well).Music programs are looking at getting axed, art teachers are no longer at a lot of high schools. I just feel that the money I pay into the education system should go for tha basics, math, english, reading, science, and the arts, without art this would be a sad place to live.
Again, sorry for all of my rambelings. I do not mean to offend any one these are just my views. And on a side note I have very much enjoyed reading the views of everyone else...I love America!!
Hope you do a great job on that paper!!