The Confederate Flag

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I agree about the stereotyping of Southerners. My disagreement has to do with the free speech rights part. No doubt, she has that right. But for the life of me, I don't understand why someone would choose to do that in a way that they know (or certainly should know) will be deeply and understandably offensive to their neighbors.

If it's important to me, I'll find a way a to express myself that doesn't simultaneously offend those who live around me -- such as by occasionally flying a flag (I fly different kinds of flags all the time) that carries the same (or more) meaning for me but that doesn't come with all of the baggage and connotations of "the Confederate flag."

That neighbor was being an asshole.

I have much love for the Black Panther Party. I wouldn't display flags and symbols for the BPP in our cul de sac community in which we are the only Black family. Those white neighbors do not want to hear about the history and the relevance of the BPP. Those white neighbors would contact HOA and would stop having cul de sac cookouts. LOL.

Power to the People.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Happy to meet you, winter. Hope you can regard this as a positive encounter.
I am a non-racist bearer of C.S.A. flags - although I favor the 3rd National myself.
One of my many C.S.A. ancestors was Captain David Cartwright Jackson, but I can show you my U.D.C. card if need be, 33girl.
I was a featured speaker at a Sam Davis Camp this summer - my topic was southern linguistics. It's not always just about The War - in many, many cases - including the many learned (as in university professors and PhDs I know through SCV, UDC and LOS) ladies and gentlemen I know in heritage groups - it is also about southern culture.(Not an oxymoron) After 4 years in New Jersey I can say that most above the Mason-Dixon don't get that - hence the whole "Why don't they just get over it" thing, which is insulting in its idiocy. It's right up there with "Well, at least we won The War!" which always made me wonder why those New Jersyians couldn't come up with anything in defense of themselves other than an event which occurred over 100 years ago.
Other than that, I don't want to disrupt the southern hate-in developing here, and I am going to resolve to stay away from news and politics. She flew the flag, the neighbors didn't like it, they built the fences, she didn't like it, she made sure she could continue to exercise her free speech rights. I don't get why this is "news". Happy stereotyping.

Also co-signing, along with MysticCat's questioning why one would purposely do something that would cause hate among the neighbors.

These discussions are always interesting to me, growing up north of the Mason-Dixon line with a mother named Dixie Lee. I couldn't begin to count how many people have asked me what her real name was, or why was she named Dixie Lee - especially since I have biracial foster cousins. To my knowledge, no ancestors of mine ever owned any slaves. I have never flown a Confederate Flag, except while doing a historical retrospective of vexillology in America.

When my mother & I were invited to our first event with the United Daughters of the Confederacy, we had mixed emotions. We finally decided that, unless we saw the "why". This answers the question:


"I am a Daughter of the Confederacy because I can no more help being a Daughter of the Confederacy than I can help being an American, and I feel that I was greatly favored by inheriting a birthright for both."

Written by Mary Nowlin Moon (Mrs. John)

That said, while I'm proud of all of my ancestors, Northern, Southern or whatever, I wouldn't fly the flag if I knew it caused grief. I have some little ones, souvenirs of the above-mentioned project, but they stay inside (next to a funny photo of Tyra!). Isn't there a biblical verse about not causing your neighbor to sin?

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I never think "why don't they get over it" when I see it here. I think "that person hates black people and thinks this is more socially acceptable than posting a sign that reads 'n*****s please die'." Unfortunately, SWTXBelle, for the people like you who DO fly it for other reasons, they have been eclipsed by the racists. I'm not sure how rural your town is, but winter's right - in a lot of areas, it's just a kind of shorthand. (Rather like the rainbow flags on gay-friendly establishments.)

Yup.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I have much love for the Black Panther Party. I wouldn't display flags and symbols for the BPP in our cul de sac community in which we are the only Black family. Those white neighbors do not want to hear about the history and the relevance of the BPP. Those white neighbors would contact HOA and would stop having cul de sac cookouts. LOL.

Power to the People.

Oh don't even get me started on HOAs! I detest them.

And yes, I'm a nerd --please see my location. (And when I feel the need to fly something "Southern," I use the old state flag. Hardly anybody has a clue what it is.)

Meanwhile, major props to honeychile for using the word "vexillology."

[IndianaSigKap]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

My disagreement has to do with the free speech rights part. No doubt, she has that right. But for the life of me, I don't understand why someone would choose to do that in a way that they know (or certainly should know) will be deeply and understandably offensive to their neighbors.

If it's important to me, I'll find a way a to express myself that doesn't simultaneously offend those who live around me -- such as by occasionally flying a flag (I fly different kinds of flags all the time) that carries the same (or more) meaning for me but that doesn't come with all of the baggage and connotations of "the Confederate flag."

Last year one of my students wrote an column in our school paper about the same time that Terry Jones was calling for the quoran burning writing that even though one may have the right to do something, does that mean that it's morally or ethically correct? He was writing about the "just because you can do something, does it mean you should" principle. He is very well read and writes eloquently, and comes from an interesting background: Dad is a presbyterian pastor, Mom is a social worker and step mom is a PhD who is a retired professor at a theological seminary. His column definitely started some good dialog at school. This story reminded me of his column and some of the discussions the kids had surrounding the Jones incident.

[katydidKD]

I hate HOA's too! But my mother loves it. I think its an encroachment on your personal property rights, but you do choose to live in a HOA community. Blech.

[DrPhil]

I like good HOAs. I hate bad HOAs. Some neighborhoods would go straight to hell if they didn't have HOAs because you would have to trust that the residents share a consensus on a lot of things. Personal property rights can infringe upon community property and the rights of others.

[Low C Sharp]

I never think "why don't they get over it" when I see it here. I think "that person hates black people and thinks this is more socially acceptable than posting a sign that reads 'n*****s please die'." Unfortunately, SWTXBelle, for the people like you who DO fly it for other reasons, they have been eclipsed by the racists. I'm not sure how rural your town is, but winter's right - in a lot of areas, it's just a kind of shorthand. (Rather like the rainbow flags on gay-friendly establishments.)

Ten thumbs up to this. Anyone who wants to respect Confederate history without invoking segregationist terror has an array of flags to choose from. The KKK never lynched anyone while flying Bonnie Blue. So if you decide to fly the one they did use...as far as I'm concerned, the racist message is loud and clear.

I am a Daughter of the Confederacy because I can no more help being a Daughter of the Confederacy than I can help being an American

I really don't get it. I have gratitude to all my ancestors, but if I find out that any of them fought on behalf of the Leninists back in Russia, I won't be flying their hammer-and-sickle flag. I won't call myself a Daughter of the October Revolution, even though I technically won't be able to help it. Even if they made selfless sacrifices on behalf of their ideals, even if the Tsar was an autocrat who starved his people, even if I love Russian culture, I couldn't be proud that my family fought in the army to establish the Soviet system. Interesting historical fact, sure...but proud of that? No.

[33girl]

What exactly do HOAs do? Just maintain the neighborhood? I guess what I'm asking is what you get out of it, other than a nice looking neighborhood and maybe a pool or kids' park or something.

[katydidKD]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I like good HOAs. I hate bad HOAs. Some neighborhoods would go straight to hell if they didn't have HOAs because you would have to trust that the residents share a consensus on a lot of things. Personal property rights can infringe upon community property and the rights of others.

Yes, but something about people telling me what i can do with my property bothers me. But I understand it is important that there be rules since bad neighbors can decrease your home's value, people want them so things are regulated, etc.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by 33girl

What exactly do HOAs do? Just maintain the neighborhood? I guess what I'm asking is what you get out of it, other than a nice looking neighborhood and maybe a pool or kids' park or something.

Pretty much. They try to make sure "rogue homeowners" don't lower the property values in neighborhoods.

A lot of them tend to go a bit too far, though, particularly in Texas. I remember reading about someone getting fined because he had a pickup truck in a "luxury car neighborhood." He was told to park in the garage, but because the truck was so large, it wouldn't fit. He was charged fines monthly.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by *winter*

I can understand the whole Southern Pride thing...to a point. I'm proud that I'm a German-American, but I also understand flying a Nazi flag probably wouldn't be the best way to go about expressing this pride. I just think that the Confederate flag is something that offends or bothers so many people (black and white), so find another emblem.

I myself have never had any strong opinions about this topic but comparing the Nazi Flag to the Confederate flag is just out there. Germany has a beautiful flag...fly that to show your ethnic pride. Only a neo-nazi skinhead would fly the swastika.

I know I'm wired differently than most of you here, but I'd rather see people sporting their nazi, gang, bpp, racist, anti-government, greek, etc, para than try to hide who they really are. It's all about the situational awareness. I had a couple move into the apt above mine recently and the guy has a symbol on his truck that is commonly used by a local gang. Doesn't bother me because now I know to watch my back around this guy. I understand how people can be offended if they see an offensive (to them) symbol everytime they look out their window but if some guy has confederate flag or gang symbol on his bumper....who cares? The guy just did you a favor by broadcasting to you that he's trouble.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Only a neo-nazi skinhead would fly the swastika.

For clarity's sake:

This form of the swastika



Not this form of the swastika




/turning into MysticCat

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I know I'm wired differently than most of you here, but I'd rather see people sporting their nazi, gang, bpp, racist, anti-government, greek, etc, para than try to hide who they really are. It's all about the situational awareness. I had a couple move into the apt above mine recently and the guy has a symbol on his truck that is commonly used by a local gang. Doesn't bother me because now I know to watch my back around this guy. I understand how people can be offended if they see an offensive (to them) symbol everytime they look out their window but if some guy has confederate flag or gang symbol on his bumper....who cares? The guy just did you a favor by broadcasting to you that he's trouble.

You do not know how we are wired.

Someone who sports the Confederate Flag is not automatically "trouble." Such labeling of people is problematic because it is above and beyond the labeling of the items themselves. It is different than a gang symbol and a Nazi symbol.

And only an idiot would sport a gang symbol on his bumper, if that's true. The police better be watching him.

[ElieM]

I was thinking that flying the Nazi flag is not how I would show my Germanic pride. Perhaps more along the lines of the German Confederation flag as that what was probably flying when my forebears departed those shores

[Low C Sharp]

comparing the Nazi Flag to the Confederate flag is just out there

Really? Even though both were used in living memory during the 20th century to display the bearer's support for a nationwide campaign of race-based intimidation, expulsion, and murder? You don't see any parallel? What was the Holocaust but lynching on an industrial scale?