Quota Additions

[Drolefille]

Large numbers of women going bidless leads to large numbers of women who are anti-Greek life.

/jmo

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

No, you misunderstand me. I am not suggesting that quota be changed. I am suggesting that, rather than a huge number of QA's, there are women who go bidless, and then have the chance to take another look at the chapters that are below quota or total.

That's where we disagree. Having women who rank all their pref chapers go bidless because of a strict cap on QAs seems totally unfair. I don't feel bad for the women who suicide or rank 2/3 chapters if they don't get a bid, because you're not eligible to be a QA then. Having QAs is an incentive for the PNM who has a "bottom" chapter as one of her pref chapters to rank it, because she's guaranteed a bid somewhere, and at some schools, it may be her one good shot at going Greek.

Going back to my example with a PNM being invited back to all top chapters for pref, if all she has left is top chapters, she probably does fit into a top chapter. Just because she got numerically screwed shouldn't mean her options should be the chapters who didn't make quota or are not at total. Chances are she isn't going to want them, and they might not want her. Nobody wins.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I am also wondering if (but this is far more conjecture) women would think harder about what chapters wanted them as well as what chapters they want if they knew they weren't guaranteed a bid just by making it to pref.

I guess it's a chicken-egg scenario, but because a PNM from anywhere on the bid list could match thanks to QAs, chapters that invite a woman to pref DO want that woman in their chapter. Just because a PNM is at the "bottom" of the bid list does not mean that she is not wanted, and the difference between being on the first bid list and the bottom may be relatively small, especially for a top tier chapter with a shorter bid list. QAs tend to benefit the middle and low tier chapters because their bid lists are longer than top tier chapters.

I believe Kappa is a strong, popular chapter at W&L. They may have had a dip from past high-performance, therefore having to release a lot more women than other chapters, which doesn't give them much room for error. They will probably snap bid to quota and be fine.

[KSUViolet06]

^^^Truth. Many times bigger chapters over-cut and miss the mark.

And anytime I've seen QAs, I've seen it as you've said it (middle and smaller groups get the most.)

I don't have an issue with it. It actually REWARDS PNMs who maximize. Girls who don't rank EVERY pref they attend aren't eligible for one (as far as I know.)

And really, PNMs don't go into pref knowing that they're going to get matched with #1 as a QA because the average PNM doesn't even know that that's a possibility.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

It actually REWARDS PNMs who maximize.

Exactly. An incentive not to suicide.

[Titchou]

Originally Posted by dukedg

Sort of related question that I never thought of until now...

What happens if panhellenic estimates the lowest quota should be is 40, so chapters submit first bid lists in alphabetical order and then wants to lower quota? Is panhellenic then locked into a minimum quota of 40? If not, and they want to test out the effects of a lower quota, how do they know which PNMs would make it onto the chapter's first bid list if quota was only 37, let's say?

There is a flex list that goes with the bid list and it's like the old second list and that is ranked also in the order in which you want them. And the chapters are giving a "quota range" and the list is submitted with the lower number and the flex list takes precedence after that to allow for a higher quota.

[ADqtPiMel]

Originally Posted by dukedg

Sort of related question that I never thought of until now...

What happens if panhellenic estimates the lowest quota should be is 40, so chapters submit first bid lists in alphabetical order and then wants to lower quota? Is panhellenic then locked into a minimum quota of 40? If not, and they want to test out the effects of a lower quota, how do they know which PNMs would make it onto the chapter's first bid list if quota was only 37, let's say?

While I suppose it could happen, it seems that the lowest quota estimate is usually way lower than what quota ends up being. For the chapter I work with, this year we were asked to set our A list at 33 and we ended up with 48 new members. I'm guessing panhellenic would probably call the chapter president and just ask.

As for PNMs going bidless rather than matching as a QA...I know that any woman who gets invited to pref at the chapter I advise is very much wanted, regardless of her position on the list. I'd hate to see PNMs who are liked by all of their preffing chapters go without a bid. And I really think the removal of the 5% QA cap HELPS smaller chapters, rather than harming them.

[carnation]

I can't help thinking of all the women who would now be Greek had QAs been in place back in the day. I knew so many who went to 2 prefs and didn't match, including direct legacies.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by carnation

I can't help thinking of all the women who would now be Greek had QAs been in place back in the day. I knew so many who went to 2 prefs and didn't match, including direct legacies.

Not to mention, if RFM had been in place back in the day.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by carnation

I can't help thinking of all the women who would now be Greek had QAs been in place back in the day. I knew so many who went to 2 prefs and didn't match, including direct legacies.

Were there no groups on their campuses that were below total? Or were they against looking at those groups post-bid day? Or just so burned out after rush that they were done with the whole thing?

I'm a believer that, on campuses with chapters larger than, say, 80 women, we could use a random number generator to throw women in chapters and it would work just as well as formal rush. That's why it is hard for me to understand how someone "belongs" in a top tier chapter and is too good to be in the smaller one.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Were there no groups on their campuses that were below total? Or were they against looking at those groups post-bid day? Or just so burned out after rush that they were done with the whole thing?

I'm a believer that, on campuses with chapters larger than, say, 80 women, we could use a random number generator to throw women in chapters and it would work just as well as formal rush. That's why it is hard for me to understand how someone "belongs" in a top tier chapter and is too good to be in the smaller one.

This may be true, but you can't convince an 18 year old of this...as much as we would like to.

[carnation]

Maybe all of the above. There were groups below total, especially at Auburn in the seventies (where quota was given after first or second parties, resulting in huge pledge classes for about half the groups and a year of COBing for everyone else). However, I don't think it would have gone over too well for someone to be told that she wouldn't be getting a bid to her mom's sorority, where she'd attended prefs, but that a sorority that she hadn't seen since the first of seven sets of parties wanted to give her a bid.

Looking back over years of recruitments, I can only think of one woman who accepted a bid right off from a third group after attending 2 prefs and not getting a bid from either. The rest either went through formal rush again the next year (some of those went Greek then) or never rushed again.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I'm a believer that, on campuses with chapters larger than, say, 80 women, we could use a random number generator to throw women in chapters and it would work just as well as formal rush. That's why it is hard for me to understand how someone "belongs" in a top tier chapter and is too good to be in the smaller one.

I strongly disagree. Just because a campus has large chapters does not mean that any PNM would fit into any chapter. At least at Maryland, this is certainly not the case because I feel like chapters have their own distinct "identities" and it's not just based on how "hot" chapters are perceived by guys. Out of the 14 chapters (chapters are 140ish after spring FR) at my alma mater, I still say that I would be a good fit in only 4 of them (all of which invited me to pref, one of which I joined), an okay fit in 4 more, and definitely not a fit in the remaining 6.

Could I have found SOMEONE to be friends with in any of the remaining 6 chapters? Of course, but I would feel like an outsider if I were in any of those 6. And in case it matters to you, 5 of those 6 are considered "top" or "middle" chapters, all of whom cut me at some point in the process, and the other is still a strong, viable chapter that doesn't have problems with numbers.

[33girl]

I would agree with DBB if that number was doubled to 160 - 175.

[sherrybaby]

I also really disagree except in the cases of huge (more along the lines of what 33girl said) chapters. in my (admittedly limited) experience, very few people, chapters or rushees, benefit from shoehorning girls in where they don't fit. yes, a few girls might give a "middle" sorority a second shot and find that's where they belong, but lots of girls would rather rerush or not be greek than belong to certain chapters, and not just because of tiers. there's a chapter on my campus with a very distinct identity - quirky, girls who probably wouldn't be Greek and wouldn't want to be on a bigger campus. but they love it - it's a strong, close-knit sisterhood who are active on campus and who do almost everything together, and their sisters wouldn't trade it for any of the "top" sororities. honestly, they would be miserable at some of the other sororities on campus, and some of the members of other sororities would be miserable there. they made quota this year, but barely. they do much better at COB. the reason why? when pnms feel forced to go somewhere where they react poorly. girls complain about "having" to go back to places where they have had forced, awkward, shallow conversations with girls they have nothing in common with. whereas in COB, only girls who want to go do, and so they only get the really interested girls who will be committed members.

the girls who get bids during formal who don't feel they fit mostly don't even go to bid day, and either rerush next year, or become very anti-greek. maybe there are a few, but i've never heard of a girl who went bidless COBing this group because they feel they have had enough experience with them to realize that they don't fit in. I don't think it's fair to say to them, "Yes, you played by the rules but this chapter needs numbers so you should go there or else not be Greek." That makes girls feel like numbers, and like the whole process of rush is pointless if in the end how you felt about chapters is irrelevant. Yes, they are 18-year-old girls who sometimes are silly or tier-focused or full of themselves, but lots are not, and it's unfair to completely disregard their feelings and how well they get along with sisters with the assumption that they all must be pig-headed or wrong if they don't feel comfortable with certain sororities that happen to have smaller numbers.

if those girl who get bids who don't want to be in the quirky chapter do give it a shot, the sorority has to put up with sullen, tearful girls on bid day who drop out shortly afterward. then there's disappointment because they technically receive quota or close to it but initiate far less and have much worse retention rates. I think it's doing the chapter a disservice and being condescending, even, to think they need numbers so badly they should take such miserable members.

another point, there are two chapters considered "lower" on my campus, but only this chapter really has struggled for numbers in the past. the other chapter is seen as much more desirable simply because they are more selective. the other chapter only asks girls back that they think would be a good fit and that they think they have a chance of getting. girls getting asked back here think the sorority thinks they are a good fit, whereas girls asked back to the first chapter assume it's because they ask almost everyone back (which they do). girls who get asked back are much more willing to consider this chapter simply because there is a reason they get asked back.

I think sometimes we make recruitment too much of a numbers game. While totally unequal numbers isn't a good thing, I think some chapters benefit from being smaller instead of having girls pushed in that they don't want and who don't want them. These girls rarely make good members, they trash-talk being forced to go here, and the sorority's reputation falls. I feel that a smaller group (within reason, drastically smaller presents more of a problem) with more dedicated girls who love each other and their sisterhood is infinitely happier than girls who don't fit and don't want to fit. This year, the group I'm talking about did well with recruitment, both formal and informal, with no one dropping out, and I really believe it's because they were a little more selective.

In the end, I think we rush to assume that girl who don't feel comfortable in smaller chapters just think they're better than them and need to be forced to reconsider them by being made bidless. Sometimes there are just girls that you don't get along with. I personally felt that way about the "top" and "bottom" sororities at my school, and I still feel that I would have been miserable and dropped from either of them had I shown up there on bid day. We can recognize how superficial some 18-year-olds are and take some precautions, like stressing the maximization of options, without totally disregarding the feelings and preferences of all of them, actives and rushees alike.

[carnation]

For your "limited experience", you have made some great points! Thank you!