Philadelphia abortion doctor accused of murdering patient, newborns

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

A follow up to the original story:
AP on Google

Read the rest, and if you think that the only reason people complain here is because he was "illegal" you're an idiot. It is precisely the things that made him illegal that we are revolted by.

And another story, this time about the House GOP.
Mother Jones


WTF Republicans? It's not rape if she didn't fight back? It's not rape if it's "just" statutory. Go to hell.

That is downright fucked up.

[PiKA2001]

I think Whoopi Goldberg wrote that piece of legislation.

ETA-

What I mean is, the belief that statutory rape isn't "really" rape isn't necessarily a Republican belief. There are democrats who think the same as well.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

What I mean is, the belief that statutory rape isn't "really" rape isn't necessarily a Republican belief. There are democrats who think the same as well.

So true, and it's completely fucked up either way.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I think Whoopi Goldberg wrote that piece of legislation.

ETA-

What I mean is, the belief that statutory rape isn't "really" rape isn't necessarily a Republican belief. There are democrats who think the same as well.

Yes, I'm aware that people are really stupid about rape. But who is proposing the bill? House Republicans.

So, that's who I'm blaming.

[als463]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Especially the women who were going to this clinic...from what I've read, many of these women were drug addicts, very young, and victims of domestic violence. This wasn't just a group of irresponsible young things who forgot to take the pill.

Victims of domestic violence are not irresponsible, I agree. Drug addicts ARE irresponsible. Also, being young is not an excuse.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by als463

Victims of domestic violence are not irresponsible, I agree. Drug addicts ARE irresponsible. Also, being young is not an excuse.

Drug addicts are responsible for the decision to try drugs. They are not responsible for sex they do not consent to, and I'm betting that's the case with many of those women. Not to mention the ones that buy drugs with their bodies. I have compassion for that. That can't be something they started out thinking they'd do and certainly it can't be what they want. And personally, I refuse to be so hard on "being young". Teenagers are stupid, no one can deny that, but I doubt these were teens with supportive families or access to healthcare either for themselves or their unborn babies. I know had I gotten knocked up as a teen I'd be terrified enough, and I would have had angry but supportive parents, healthcare, and eventually a college education. I don't know how those without deal rationally.

Basically the type of women that went to this clinic for late abortions on the cheap were likely (at least in general) not black and white cases of irresponsible unprotected sex.

[als463]

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

Drug addicts are responsible for the decision to try drugs. They are not responsible for sex they do not consent to, and I'm betting that's the case with many of those women. Not to mention the ones that buy drugs with their bodies. I have compassion for that. That can't be something they started out thinking they'd do and certainly it can't be what they want. And personally, I refuse to be so hard on "being young". Teenagers are stupid, no one can deny that, but I doubt these were teens with supportive families or access to healthcare either for themselves or their unborn babies. I know had I gotten knocked up as a teen I'd be terrified enough, and I would have had angry but supportive parents, healthcare, and eventually a college education. I don't know how those without deal rationally.

Basically the type of women that went to this clinic for late abortions on the cheap were likely (at least in general) not black and white cases of irresponsible unprotected sex.

Once again, getting involved in drugs is an irresponsible decision. Buying drugs with your body is a very irresponsible decision and I don't feel bad for people who do that. I don't feel sorry for people who abort a child because they got caught up in drugs, sold their bodies for drug money and then chose to abort because their risky behaviors resulted in an unwanted pregnancy.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by als463

Once again, getting involved in drugs is an irresponsible decision. Buying drugs with your body is a very irresponsible decision and I don't feel bad for people who do that. I don't feel sorry for people who abort a child because they got caught up in drugs, sold their bodies for drug money and then chose to abort because their risky behaviors resulted in an unwanted pregnancy.

I feel sorry for anyone who was so desperate they chose this doctor rather than seeking a reputable clinic. Babies are not punishment for being an addict. Botched abortions are not punishment either.

Most women who have an abortion at all aren't looking for your sympathy in the first place. It's not the abortion that society feels 'sorry' for here, it's the terrible conditions, the poverty, the desperation, the lack of supports and so on. Stop acting like the abortion is only the act of the irresponsible who are to be pitied if we deign to.

There should be a minimum standard of care. There is in fact a minimum standard of care. Why do you think that women went to this clinic rather than the planned parenthood in the same area? One woman cites the protesters, others their legal status, hiding it from family or trying to scrape up money and so on. If there was easy, universal access to healthcare NO ONE would voluntarily go to this sort of doctor. I'd argue that the women who saw him were overall not "voluntarily" going in the first place.

ETA: Ok, I've reread your comments again, and really I do no understand how you work in social services. I don't. I work with addicts, with convicted felons, I work with people who make really stupid decisions and deserve the consequences from those decisions, yet I still feel compassion. I have a client who will probably lose her son due to her crack addiction. When she gets money, she smokes it all. But when she doesn't have money all of her potential comes out. I'm probably going to have to send her back to prison or for lockdown treatment in lieu of our services, yet I still feel compassion. She is responsible for her actions, yet she still deserves adequate health care. Another client, equally addicted has a history of prostitution for drugs, yet again, it's not like the prostitution means she deserves STDs, rape, or no access to healthcare. She can't afford birth control, nor can she afford to require the 'johns' to use a condom if they decided not to. How can you NOT feel sympathy for that?

I understand sometimes when people with no contact with poor people, addicts, people with SMI, and so on just don't get it *coughKevincough* but when someone is, in theory, in the FIELD of social services and social work? Get out of the field, you're doing it wrong.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by als463

Once again, getting involved in drugs is an irresponsible decision. Buying drugs with your body is a very irresponsible decision and I don't feel bad for people who do that. I don't feel sorry for people who abort a child because they got caught up in drugs, sold their bodies for drug money and then chose to abort because their risky behaviors resulted in an unwanted pregnancy.

I guess we just disagree, but then I'm a compassionate person. No one who is addicted to heroin, for instance, is living a good life. Drugs like that that can be addictive after one or two uses cause a life time of pain as a result of one stupid decision. It's a high price to pay for a momentary lapse of judgment. I have no idea why anyone would try it in the first place, but personally I'm willing to realize that I've done many stupid things in my life and I'm lucky none of those things carried long term consequences like addiction.

A woman using her body to get drugs absolutely deserves compassion. There is no way I'll believe anyone in that position wants to be and it just shows how strong addiction really is. Obviously it isn't "right" nor ideal, but it isn't black and white either, IMO.

[als463]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I feel sorry for anyone who was so desperate they chose this doctor rather than seeking a reputable clinic. Babies are not punishment for being an addict. Botched abortions are not punishment either.

Most women who have an abortion at all aren't looking for your sympathy in the first place. It's not the abortion that society feels 'sorry' for here, it's the terrible conditions, the poverty, the desperation, the lack of supports and so on. Stop acting like the abortion is only the act of the irresponsible who are to be pitied if we deign to.

There should be a minimum standard of care. There is in fact a minimum standard of care. Why do you think that women went to this clinic rather than the planned parenthood in the same area? One woman cites the protesters, others their legal status, hiding it from family or trying to scrape up money and so on. If there was easy, universal access to healthcare NO ONE would voluntarily go to this sort of doctor. I'd argue that the women who saw him were overall not "voluntarily" going in the first place.

ETA: Ok, I've reread your comments again, and really I do no understand how you work in social services. I don't. I work with addicts, with convicted felons, I work with people who make really stupid decisions and deserve the consequences from those decisions, yet I still feel compassion. I have a client who will probably lose her son due to her crack addiction. When she gets money, she smokes it all. But when she doesn't have money all of her potential comes out. I'm probably going to have to send her back to prison or for lockdown treatment in lieu of our services, yet I still feel compassion. She is responsible for her actions, yet she still deserves adequate health care. Another client, equally addicted has a history of prostitution for drugs, yet again, it's not like the prostitution means she deserves STDs, rape, or no access to healthcare. She can't afford birth control, nor can she afford to require the 'johns' to use a condom if they decided not to. How can you NOT feel sympathy for that?

I understand sometimes when people with no contact with poor people, addicts, people with SMI, and so on just don't get it *coughKevincough* but when someone is, in theory, in the FIELD of social services and social work? Get out of the field, you're doing it wrong.

I love how because I disagree with you (or anyone who disagrees with you) I am automatically a horrible monster who should not be in the field. I'm glad that you feel the need to try and put me down because I disagree with you. I know you work with convicts-you've said it in EVERY post that deals with the poor, sick, irresponsible, etc. I get it. Good for you.

I stand behind my belief that addicts make poor choices. Does that mean they should be raped? No. You seem to feel bad for every single person that makes a poor decision and then you turn it into an entire thread about how YOU are a compassionate person and I (as well as others who don't agree with you-to include Kevin) am a horrible person in the wrong field. You don't go to work with me. You don't see how I interact with people. You have no idea of my abilities or for whom I have compassion. I find it ironic that you tell others not to judge yet, you have no problem judging me or anyone else who doesn't agree with you.

I agree with pretty much everything AlphaFrog has said and I don't really care if you like it or not. I know-I know, I'm going to get the "Shut the fuck up," speech from you and you will call me a monster because I don't share your views instead of recognizing that not everyone will agree with you.

To others who are pro-choice, that is fine. I have no ill-feelings towards you. I agree that we can disagree. I'm glad we have people who don't all think alike or the world would be very boring. As far as telling someone they shouldn't be working in the field they are in because they disagree with you-that is a little too far.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Honestly I don't see how you can be in social work and have no sympathy for people who made a poor choice and had the rest of their life effected by it.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by als463

I love how because I disagree with you (or anyone who disagrees with you) I am automatically a horrible monster who should not be in the field. I'm glad that you feel the need to try and put me down because I disagree with you. I know you work with convicts-you've said it in EVERY post that deals with the poor, sick, irresponsible, etc. I get it. Good for you.

You're not a horrible monster, that I know of. You're just someone who insists that they have no compassion for people who are 'irresponsible.' I do not understand that.

I stand behind my belief that addicts make poor choices. Does that mean they should be raped? No.

Look, we agree.

You seem to feel bad for every single person that makes a poor decision and then you turn it into an entire thread about how YOU are a compassionate person and I (as well as others who don't agree with you-to include Kevin) am a horrible person in the wrong field.

No, Kevin's not in this field, he just tends to have a bootstrappy view. When people say that X person was irresponsible and then suggests that they somehow deserve Y consequence when Y is not something that should ever BE a punishment, yeah I assume they're pretty narrow-minded.

You don't go to work with me. You don't see how I interact with people. You have no idea of my abilities or for whom I have compassion. I find it ironic that you tell others not to judge yet, you have no problem judging me or anyone else who doesn't agree with you.

I only know what you say here and based on that, you suggest that a drug addict who has an unwanted pregnancy somehow deserves a negative outcome, whether that is to be forced to carry that to term, or apparently an illegal clinic. So, yeah, judging you for that. Because see, I judge you for what you say. I don't think you're a horrible person, but I do not see how you can work in the field. It's not about politics, or religion. It's about stereotyping, class-ism, and privilege.

I agree with pretty much everything AlphaFrog has said and I don't really care if you like it or not. I know-I know, I'm going to get the "Shut the fuck up," speech from you and you will call me a monster because I don't share your views instead of recognizing that not everyone will agree with you.

The doctor was the monster here. I think you doth protest too much. Maybe you keep your personal views out of your work, I don't know. You seem to overestimate your importance. Rape-apologists get the STFU speech. You just tend to try and over explain yourself while at the same time be really sure that you're apart from those drug addicts, those people who make poor choices who therefore are irresponsible even if they turn around and try to take the responsible action of NOT bringing a pre-addicted baby into the world without parents who could take care of it.

To others who are pro-choice, that is fine. I have no ill-feelings towards you. I agree that we can disagree. I'm glad we have people who don't all think alike or the world would be very boring. As far as telling someone they shouldn't be working in the field they are in because they disagree with you-that is a little too far.

If you think this was "You shouldn't be a social worker because you're anti-choice." You're wrong. If you think this was a "How do you work in social services if you think being required to carry a pregnancy to term or seek out an illegal clinic for an abortion is in any way an expected and reasonable consequence of being drug addict and they should just be so responsible" then you're right.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Honestly I don't see how you can be in social work and have no sympathy for people who made a poor choice and had the rest of their life effected by it.

Thank you, that's what I'm saying. It's not about one's politics or beliefs on abortion itself, it's being able to understand and empathize with your clients.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by als463

Victims of domestic violence are not irresponsible, I agree. Drug addicts ARE irresponsible. Also, being young is not an excuse.

Drug addicts have a disease.

[aggieAXO]

Originally Posted by als463

Once again, getting involved in drugs is an irresponsible decision. Buying drugs with your body is a very irresponsible decision and I don't feel bad for people who do that. I don't feel sorry for people who abort a child because they got caught up in drugs, sold their bodies for drug money and then chose to abort because their risky behaviors resulted in an unwanted pregnancy.

Oh, then by all means let's bring all of these unwanted children to term. I am sure they will have a great life with their drug addicted parents. Heck, they will probably be an addict themselves yeah!