Gay Emory Student Dragged From Frat Party

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Yes, it is the rapists fault, for sure. But if I don't have to put myself in a situation that leaves me vulnerable, then I should just not involve myself in that situation *in the first place.*

I've read carefully, which is how I've expertly diagnosed your exceptional cognitive dissonance. (NOTE: I don't diagnose things, and I'm not an expert)

Here's the thing - you're essentially saying "it's the rapist's fault, but she didn't have to be there in the first place." This is the same as saying "she did something wrong" because, after all, she chose a bad situation over a good one - which is blaming the victim. It can't be both - it can't be wholly one person's fault, but the other person contributed. So we simply cannot, cannot hedge and say "it's the rapist's fault, BUT..." in any way. We can argue about the dude who didn't buy insurance and his house burned down, but here, there's another element involved: human choice. The guy made a choice and that eliminates ANY issues from the woman's side - even "putting herself at risk."

I know you really don't want to blame the victim - I honestly think you don't feel you are blaming the victim, and instead think it's a matter of a horrible man and a woman who made questionable or unfortunate decisions. But there isn't more than 100% blame here, and it can't be both.

Similarly, saying "I wouldn't have done ______" is usually the essence of cognitive dissonance, and (to come full circle) is Page 1 of the "how to get women to let a guy off for rape" defense attorney's handbook (which was my original point). It's all good - it's a strong natural force, and we all do it.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Yeaaaaah...it sounds like you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

So why did you ask?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

So why did you ask?

Read it as:

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Yeaaaaah...this post makes it sound like you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

I've read carefully, which is how I've expertly diagnosed your exceptional cognitive dissonance. (NOTE: I don't diagnose things, and I'm not an expert)

Here's the thing - you're essentially saying "it's the rapist's fault, but she didn't have to be there in the first place." This is the same as saying "she did something wrong" because, after all, she chose a bad situation over a good one - which is blaming the victim. It can't be both - it can't be wholly one person's fault, but the other person contributed. So we simply cannot, cannot hedge and say "it's the rapist's fault, BUT..." in any way. We can argue about the dude who didn't buy insurance and his house burned down, but here, there's another element involved: human choice. The guy made a choice and that eliminates ANY issues from the woman's side - even "putting herself at risk."

I know you really don't want to blame the victim - I honestly think you don't feel you are blaming the victim, and instead think it's a matter of a horrible man and a woman who made questionable or unfortunate decisions. But there isn't more than 100% blame here, and it can't be both.

Similarly, saying "I wouldn't have done ______" is usually the essence of cognitive dissonance, and (to come full circle) is Page 1 of the "how to get women to let a guy off for rape" defense attorney's handbook (which was my original point). It's all good - it's a strong natural force, and we all do it.

Okay, last post tonight...for real. I'll have to catch up in the morning.

So, here goes.

The article was posted in the OP. I read it.

Based on the account, the way I interpreted the events was this gay guy walked into the private party in a private residence of a fraternity (that I think he knew something about), and based on his attire, it caused a fight.

Should the fraternity guy have put his hands on him, no.

But, by the same token, the gay guy should not have presented himself in a way that provoked the incident - that is where, in this case, I blame the gay guy. It was a situation specific incident.

Now, had this gay guy been walking down the street, and the events occurred the same way, then, by all means, the fraternity is 100% to blame.

What I am saying is that I don't think the gay guy is completely innocent.


THEN!!! Just as that discussion died down, it was you, I believe, who decided to stir the pot, and bring rape into it, by making a similar comparison to the OP.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Read it as:

Ehh...if you say so. And for certain, with that,

Good night all! I'll see you all in the morning!!

[DrPhil]

LOL @ posters announcing their departure. Save that for the chatroom.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Based on the account, the way I interpreted the events was this gay guy walked into the private party in a private residence of a fraternity (that I think he knew something about), and based on his attire, it caused a fight.

From the response:

This whole dumb event occurred because I was drunk and thought it would be funny to throw someone out to the wrath of the huge security guard at the door, and the most ridiculous person that naturally stood out to me was this Wizard dressed kid. I purposely egged him on a little bit, he snapped back at me, and I threw him out.

What if The Wizard was wearing a baseball cap of a rival school? Or what if he was wearing white after labor day? Would Adam Smith still be justified in assaulting him?

Should the fraternity guy have put his hands on him, no.

Then it's not The Wizard's fault.

But, by the same token, the gay guy should not have presented himself in a way that provoked the incident - that is where, in this case, I blame the gay guy. It was a situation specific incident.

You really don't see how this line of thinking causes people to compare this to blaming a rape victim? That's sad.

[sigmadiva]

Okay, I just had to check before getting into bed.....

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

From the response:
What if The Wizard was wearing a baseball cap of a rival school? Or what if he was wearing white after labor day? Would Adam Smith still be justified in assaulting him?



Then it's not The Wizard's fault.

Oh gee whiz...we've been over this multiple times, just go back through the thread and re-read what I said. This discussion has become beyond circular now.....

You really don't see how this line of thinking causes people to compare this to blaming a rape victim? That's sad.

No. What I don't see is why anyone would ever want to suggest that a house brawl between a couple of drunk college kids is anywhere near the severity and magnitude of a woman getting raped. I did not bring up rape in this discussion.

Another poster was like, 'Hey, it's all the same right? No matter what, the victim is always blameless'. Well, I seem to recall reading a thread about a family who did not pay their fire fighter dues, their house caught on fire, and people we like 'Hellzz yeah, they did not pay their dues, let their house burn!!!' Some people did not seem to have a problem blaming the victims there.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

No. What I don't see is why anyone would ever want to suggest that a house brawl between a couple of drunk college kids is anywhere near the severity and magnitude of a woman getting raped. I did not bring up rape in this discussion.

The brawl in and of itself is not the issue. The problem arises when you say that he was somehow asking for it because of his sexuality and/or style of dress. That's the same faulty logic people use when they're blaming rape victims for being raped.

If you want to take rape off the table -- if someone gets hit by a drunk driver, should s/he be at fault? Since we all know people drink and drive, should everyone stop driving?

Another poster was like, 'Hey, it's all the same right? No matter what, the victim is always blameless'. Well, I seem to recall reading a thread about a family who did not pay their fire fighter dues, their house caught on fire, and people we like 'Hellzz yeah, they did not pay their dues, let their house burn!!!' Some people did not seem to have a problem blaming the victims there.

Not the same thing. Just like your flood example.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Okay, I just had to check before getting into bed.....



Oh gee whiz...we've been over this multiple times, just go back through the thread and re-read what I said. This discussion has become beyond circular now.....




No. What I don't see is why anyone would ever want to suggest that a house brawl between a couple of drunk college kids is anywhere near the severity and magnitude of a woman getting raped. I did not bring up rape in this discussion.

Another poster was like, 'Hey, it's all the same right? No matter what, the victim is always blameless'. Well, I seem to recall reading a thread about a family who did not pay their fire fighter dues, their house caught on fire, and people we like 'Hellzz yeah, they did not pay their dues, let their house burn!!!' Some people did not seem to have a problem blaming the victims there.

sigmadiva -

I see where you are trying to go with this and I wish I could find a good example. I don't think sexual assault is the best one here, and I wish we could all find a better one that represents what you're getting at. I don't think you're blaming rape victims, or all victims, but being accountable for actions is a fine line. No one ever deserves to be assaulted, even if they exhibit behavior that puts them in a situation where they are a victim. We all make choices and sometimes our choice is a factor in a situation, but it isn't our fault. Anyone who assaults another made the choice to behave that way as well, and they chose to be a perpetrator and assault someone. I read Adam Smith's own words, and he said he was drunk and I'll paraphrase looking for a fight/drama. Even if it wasn't wizard hat it would have been someone else, and I think if the someone else who could have been assaulted was not gay we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I did not say that, nor was that implied. What I said was that knowing an area that is violent, I would be stupid to go there, thinking that I don't run the risk of being assaulted.

And yet, if you were assaulted I wouldn't once think "damn, what an idiot."

I want women to feel that they should not have to subject themselves to people, places, events, that they don't want to.

I want women to have high self esteem so that they don't feel that they have to get treated in a certain way.

I want women to feel empowered.

When women feel they deserve less than the best, that is ripe for abuse, of any kind.

What I am saying is that women should not have to go to such extremes just to be liked and accepted.

Women should not have to feel as if the only way they can get attention and "love" is to suffer abuse for it and put up with it.

I want women to be able to take control of their lives, and to do that is to understand their responsibility in their own actions. To recognize that they don't have to leave that option to someone else. It is their choice.

You do not seem to grasp that rape has zero to do with their own actions.

I wonder why do you think you have to resort to using profanity to get your point across?

I don't have to. I choose to. Because people like you make it easier for rapists to get away with it.

Also, I doubt that's what you were trying to insinuate, but you got scared and backed off.

Particularly pathetic from someone who'll say ass but hide it behind symbols "because of the TOS."

Go back and re-read my posts. I've answered this multiple times....

You have, in the affirmative.

Again with the 'F' bomb. Color me impressed....

I don't care if I impress you. You're a moron who perpetuates the culture that makes rape "OK" by your insistence that it is partially the victim's fault. You are part of the problem. Not the woman who drinks too much, or the person who ends up in the wrong area of town or the guy who shows up at the party where his friends were; YOU are part of the problem. Because you're the reason the defense lawyer can ask a victim how many people she sleeps with, what she was wearing, why she was even at that party and how many drinks she had and get his client acquitted.

When I tell you to fuck off, it's not for a lack of other things to say, it's because that is the best way to express how disgusted I am with the things you're saying. So fuck off, kiss my ass, go fuck yourself, or have a blessed day but stop being part of the fucking problem.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

sigmadiva -

I see where you are trying to go with this and I wish I could find a good example. 1. I don't think sexual assault is the best one here, and I wish we could all find a better one that represents what you're getting at. I don't think you're blaming rape victims, or all victims, 2.but being accountable for actions is a fine line. No one ever deserves to be assaulted, even if they exhibit behavior that puts them in a situation where they are a victim. We all make choices and 3. sometimes our choice is a factor in a situation, but it isn't our fault. Anyone who assaults another made the choice to behave that way as well, and they chose to be a perpetrator and assault someone. I read Adam Smith's own words, and he said he was drunk and I'll paraphrase looking for a fight/drama. Even if it wasn't wizard hat it would have been someone else, and I think if the someone else who could have been assaulted 4. was not gay we wouldn't be having this discussion.

1. I agree. If you go back to page 4, post #47, Kevin compared the OT of this thread to a woman getting raped. That is where it got off track on the whole rape issue.

2. I agree here too. My point being, in any circumstance, one can minimize their outcome by being aware and taking precautions. While in many cases you could be a victim, but by being as diligent as possible, you don't *have* to be a victim.

3. Yes and no. I think that if you always feel that no matter what happens to you is never your fault, (good or bad), then I think you are setting yourself up for a lifetime of disappointment. For the sometimes - sometimes you can take responsibility for your actions, sometimes you can't, you just have to be able to know and recognize when.

I knew this girl in grad school who never made much progress because whenever her project hit a snag, it was never her fault. She would *always* blame someone else for her problem. Example, her reports were never in on time, not her fault because 1. her garage door was not working that day, so she could not get her car out of the garage, or 2. when she tried to go to the computer lab to print her work, she had trouble getting access to her account, or 3. she could not come to class because she had a family emergency that just so happened to happen on the same weekend our school had a big football game.

All plausible circumstances, but by the middle of the semester, there was a definite pattern.

4. I think we came to this conclusion on page 3.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

1. I agree. If you go back to page 4, post #47, Kevin compared the OT of this thread to a woman getting raped. That is where it got off track on the whole rape issue.

Not exactly. I said that the characterization of this being the gay fella's fault for dressing funny was akin to blaming the rape on the scantily clad woman. Yeah, a little simplistic, but not too over the top. Appearing a certain way absolutely never invites someone to commit battery or worse against you. Never. I didn't take the rape analogy and run with it, nor did I defend it.

I had remarked also that I thought this chapter failed on several levels--both during the event where this could have all been prevented with a guest list, or even security enforcing some loosely defined dress code. I also remarked that the chapter failed to adequately circle the wagons after the event, the alumnus should have stayed quiet and referred everything to his personal legal counsel so he wouldn't say anything dumb (which he did) which could get him in worse trouble than he was already in.

[agzg]

OMG, THAT'S TOTALLY IT... people get raped because they have LOW SELF.ESTEEM!

[sigmadiva]

[QUOTE=Drolefille;1998832]

Also, I doubt that's what you were trying to insinuate, but you got scared and backed off.

You're right. It is very apparent that this is a very hot button issue for you. I'm glad that you are so adamant in your views.

The issue of a woman being raped was never the OT of this thread. It got derailed about 4 pages ago by someone, who I feel, wanted to stir the pot some more.

But to hopefully and finally address your point:

Do I feel that it is a woman's fault for being raped in any circumstance, no.

Do I feel that she can take steps in certain situations to minimize her chance of being raped, yes.

In grad school, whenever I left the lab late and had to go out to the parking lot to my car, I'd call and ask for a security escort. I didn't have to, but I did.

Whenever I was in the lab late at night working, I made sure the doors were locked if I was in the lab by myself.

I made sure that I was as secure as possible. Could something have still happened to me, probably. But, to minimize that I did all I could to prevent a negative outcome. I took responsibility for my safety whenever possible. That is all I'm saying.

Particularly pathetic from someone who'll say ass but hide it behind symbols "because of the TOS."

No, not pathetic. I just did not think using profanity really helped the discussion, considering the content of the discussion, rape.

1. I don't care if I impress you. You're a moron who perpetuates the culture that makes rape "OK" by your insistence that it is partially the victim's fault. You are part of the problem. Not the woman who drinks too much, or the person who ends up in the wrong area of town or the guy who shows up at the party where his friends were; YOU are part of the problem. Because you're the reason the defense lawyer can ask a victim how many people she sleeps with, what she was wearing, why she was even at that party and how many drinks she had and get his client acquitted.

When I tell you to fuck off, it's not for a lack of other things to say, it's because that is the best way to express how disgusted I am with the things you're saying. 2. So fuck off, kiss my ass, go fuck yourself, or have a blessed day but stop being part of the fucking problem.

To the bold 1.: I was being sarcastic

To the bold 2.: sure.....