ITT We Discuss Theology

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

It's funny because you and I have a similar faith upbringing on paper (add Catholic school to my resume, and subtract weekly confession - eek!) with very different results. I think the difference is that yours may have a had a repressive bend to it where my parents were never super strict, but then again I don't think they had to be with my sister and I. So I always saw Catholicism as a naturally occurring phenomenon in regard to how one lives. Like I said, this fascinates me!

This was more how I was raised as well. And it meant I've always looked positively on the religion itself. My reasons for leaving it have primarily been personal and/or disagreements with the hierarchy, not objection to the dogma or the cultural application of it.

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

It's funny because you and I have a similar faith upbringing on paper (add Catholic school to my resume, and subtract weekly confession - eek!) with very different results. I think the difference is that yours may have a had a repressive bend to it where my parents were never super strict, but then again I don't think they had to be with my sister and I. So I always saw Catholicism as a naturally occurring phenomenon in regard to how one lives. Like I said, this fascinates me!

I was sent to Catholic school through 5th grade inclusive. However, the public schools where I grew up are excellent, and my father reluctantly admitted that I would get a far better secular education there. (He himself attended Catholic schools up to and including college.) So I was enrolled in the public middle school and CCD starting in 6th grade. And weekly confession was expected (my father still goes every week) - even if I were not conscious of having sinned in the previous week, he instructed me to tell the priest that I had come for the grace of the sacrament.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

This was more how I was raised as well. And it meant I've always looked positively on the religion itself. My reasons for leaving it have primarily been personal and/or disagreements with the hierarchy, not objection to the dogma or the cultural application of it.

My objections have been to both the hierarchy and the dogma.

~~~

I have two major problems with Catholicism. One is the inherent inequality of women and men. Women cannot be priests - if you want to devote your life to God, the highest position you can aspire to is a nun. Married women are expected to submit to their husbands (see Ephesians 5:22-24). The structure is set up so that women cannot be leaders. (Aside: This is why I am a Reform Jew and not an Orthodox Jew. Reform Judaism is egalitarian; Orthodox Judaism is definitely not. I belong to a congregation where both the rabbi and the president are women.)

The second is the prohibition against asking questions. The Catechism is full of questions, of course, but they all have neat pre-defined Vatican-approved answers. My parents always encouraged me to question the world around me and use the scientific method - except when it came to religion. I actually got kicked out of CCD for asking a question. When it came to religion, what the Vatican said, went. By contrast, Judaism has the Talmud, which is full of conflicting opinions.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by aephi alum

I was sent to Catholic school through 5th grade inclusive. However, the public schools where I grew up are excellent, and my father reluctantly admitted that I would get a far better secular education there. (He himself attended Catholic schools up to and including college.) So I was enrolled in the public middle school and CCD starting in 6th grade. And weekly confession was expected (my father still goes every week) - even if I were not conscious of having sinned in the previous week, he instructed me to tell the priest that I had come for the grace of the sacrament.



My objections have been to both the hierarchy and the dogma.

~~~

I have two major problems with Catholicism. One is the inherent inequality of women and men. Women cannot be priests - if you want to devote your life to God, the highest position you can aspire to is a nun. Married women are expected to submit to their husbands (see Ephesians 5:22-24). The structure is set up so that women cannot be leaders. (Aside: This is why I am a Reform Jew and not an Orthodox Jew. Reform Judaism is egalitarian; Orthodox Judaism is definitely not. I belong to a congregation where both the rabbi and the president are women.)

The second is the prohibition against asking questions. The Catechism is full of questions, of course, but they all have neat pre-defined Vatican-approved answers. My parents always encouraged me to question the world around me and use the scientific method - except when it came to religion. I actually got kicked out of CCD for asking a question. When it came to religion, what the Vatican said, went. By contrast, Judaism has the Talmud, which is full of conflicting opinions.

I agree with you about the treatment of women and the equality of women in Reform Judaism is something I've always admired.

And I was not raised with a prohibition on asking questions. It's one of the things I liked so much about the Jesuits. I do believe that that aspect has a lot more about where you were raised and the priests/nuns/lay people involved in teaching.

I can't quite phrase what I mean about the objections I have very well. the beliefs, no problem per se, i always questioned but there's nothing I find "wrong." The attitude of the hierarchy towards abuse victims is a huge problem and the social teachings about sexuality, in particular among other things are also a big problem for me. The treatment of women was almost an afterthought, and "submission" was never much of a value in our diocese/schools/etc. I always objected to the idea that I couldn't be a priest but other than that I was not treated nor expected to act differently as a woman than a man.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Why did you end up choosing Judaism AEPhi alum? Just the egalitarianism? If so, what set it aside from the various denominations of Christianity?

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

And I was not raised with a prohibition on asking questions. It's one of the things I liked so much about the Jesuits. I do believe that that aspect has a lot more about where you were raised and the priests/nuns/lay people involved in teaching.

And the parents.

I'm more than happy to share the story of how I got kicked out of CCD. I was in 7th grade. We were given an assignment - we were given a list of saints and told to choose one and write a paper on him/her. One of the "saints" on the list was Sarah. I asked the teacher, "Is Sarah a saint? I thought she was a matriarch." (I was right.) So the teacher chewed me out for questioning her. How dare I question an authority figure blah blah blah. She got the head of the CCD program into the classroom to berate me. Sister Peggy chewed me out in front of my classmates, formally ejected me from CCD, and then went on to berate my father on the phone (she called him "young man" and he had at least 5 years on her).

So the pastor had my father teach me from the catechism for the remainder of the academic year. And my parents and I investigated a nearby parish. We went to Mass there for a couple of months, including Easter. We were on the point of calling the parish office to enroll as parishioners when we learned that Sister Peggy was being transferred to our potential new parish as head of CCD. We went back to the old parish so fast we left skid marks.

The whole experience left such a bad taste in my mouth that I seriously doubted whether I should get confirmed. I went through with it largely because I knew I'd be in for a world of pain if I didn't. It was the beginning of the end of my being a Catholic.

And then my life led me to Judaism. And here I am.

[KSUViolet06]

Interesting conversation:

I was telling my friend about my church doing a grocery give-away for local families.

Her repsonse: That's great, but what people need is Jesus moreso than food.

Hmmm.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Interesting conversation:

I was telling my friend about my church doing a grocery give-away for local families.

Her repsonse: That's great, but what people need is Jesus moreso than food.

Hmmm.

Which is why when he was giving the sermon on the mount and people were like "Hey man we're hungry," he was like "It's cool, you've got me, you don't need food. Oh and let me finish my tuna sandwich before I finish speaking."

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Why did you end up choosing Judaism AEPhi alum? Just the egalitarianism? If so, what set it aside from the various denominations of Christianity?

I did investigate Protestant Christianity as part of my search for a faith that felt right for me. I know that some Protestant sects, including Church of England, embrace egalitarianism and ordain women. My mother was raised Anglican and converted to Catholicism... and her parents did not speak to her from that day until the day I was born.

In Judaism, there is a belief that someone who converts was really Jewish all along - it just took him/her a while to figure it out. In my case it's true. Many of my childhood friends were Jewish; I gravitated to the Jewish sorority on campus; I fell in love with a Jewish man.

On the matter of egalitarianism - the rabbi I studied with told me that I should go to an Orthodox service to see what it was like. I refused, and I told him why. He agreed.

[Gusteau]

aephi alum, I remember you saying that your parents live on Long Island - did your father go to Chaminade by any chance? I went to Kellenberg.

Anyway, another interesting thing is that many Catholics who convert (that I know of at least) usually don't convert to a Protestant denomination. I think it has a lot to do with tradition and ceremony. I know that my Catholic mindset finds a lot more resonance with Judaism that it does with most Protestant denominations - although this might just be from growing up on Long Island and having a lot of Jewish friends and almost no Protestant friends.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by aephi alum

In Judaism, there is a belief that someone who converts was really Jewish all along - it just took him/her a while to figure it out.

Very interesting belief. Though from what little I know of Judaism it makes sense.
ETA: Actually something I was wondering. Does Judaism have a concept of a baptism like Christians do?

Originally Posted by Gusteau

Anyway, another interesting thing is that many Catholics who convert (that I know of at least) usually don't convert to a Protestant denomination. I think it has a lot to do with tradition and ceremony.

Interesting point. One of the things that attracted me to the Episcopal Church after years as a lost Christian was the fact that the liturgy was so close to what I knew growing up, but the doctrine was different enough for me to embrace. Granted both Episcopal churchs I have been a member of have been distinctively High Church, but judging by the BCP, even without all the pomp the liturgy is similar enough for me.

[Drolefille]

Lifted from LJ's Metaquotes.

But, a One God? I don't know. Maybe I should put out an ad on Craigslist:

Humanoid on planet Earth seeks mega-deity akin to the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God, but less hokey. You must be completely omniscient and omnipresent, everlasting and everbeing. Please fill out the following questionnaire and return it to me via email. Or, if you prefer, via a burning piece of shrubbery or lightning-etched rock tablets. Please, no creepers or weirdos. Demigods need not apply, and mad elder gods are Right Out.

Questionnaire:

1) Please explain everything. You may use your own paper if you run out of room on this form.

2) Why do bad things happen to good people, and vice-versa? Show your math.

3) Do you have a plan for us? Do you have hopes for us? Do you care if we do good or bad things to our planet, and our neighbors? Do you care about anything?

4) Please provide pictures of any possible afterlife you endorse or provide.

5) Do you have a Nemesis? If so, aren't they also You, so...why are you fighting with yourself? Does this mean you are insane?

6) Do you have a Mate? If so, aren't they also You? So isn't your Mate just a little masturbatory?

7) Please list any laws you would have us follow.

8) Do you have a gender? Is it male or female or something else? Do you endorse males or females more over the other? If so, why. If not, why make genders at all, or allow men to (for so long) oppress women?

9) Same question as above, but about race.

10) What are the prerequisites for entering your form of afterlife?

11) Are there lifeforms on other planets, and are they your children too? If so, can we meet them?

12) Please provide a brief outline of the next 100 years. Extra credit if this is extended to 1000 years.

13) Do you care about us? If so, show your work.

14) Did you have any hand in the universe's creation?

15) Essay question -- use telepathy to access this question from my brain, and telepathy to answer it to my satisfaction.

Extra Credit: In 100 words or less, explain Why.


Best of luck in proving you are the One God. If you get the job, benefits include: my worship and undying devotion, donuts whenever you call them into being, and promotion of your miracles. You will be working with a young species, willing to move forward in enlightenment. Must be able to travel faster than the speed of light, receive millions of prayers a day, and show endless compassion for all creatures. You should also have decent hygiene, because nobody loves a slimy, smelly, million-tentacled God.

No dental coverage provided.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

Anyway, another interesting thing is that many Catholics who convert (that I know of at least) usually don't convert to a Protestant denomination.

Purely anecdotal, but there are more than a few former Catholics in our congregation -- including one of the ministers. In an odd sort of way, I've always thought of Reformed Christianity/Presbyterianism as the most "Jewish" of the strands of Christianity.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Interesting conversation:

I was telling my friend about my church doing a grocery give-away for local families.

Her repsonse: That's great, but what people need is Jesus moreso than food.

Hmmm.

Yeah, I know so many people who have this mentality.

But I feel like if someone is hungry or has some other need, before you go talking to them about Jesus, you should meet that need.

I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Purely anecdotal, but there are more than a few former Catholics in our congregation -- including one of the ministers. In an odd sort of way, I've always thought of Reformed Christianity/Presbyterianism as the most "Jewish" of the strands of Christianity.

LOL - I just KNEW people were going to tell me about all the Catholic converts they know! I think a big reason I don't know any is because on Long Island Protestantism is definitely in the minority already. Everyone you know is Catholic, Jewish, or Eastern Orthodox - I could count the Protestant friends I had as a child on one hand. This obviously colors my experience with the issue.

@deepimpact and KSUviolet, call me crazy but I think Jesus would want me to give a hungry man a sandwich. I think good work like that shows people Jesus, and makes a bigger impact than talking their ear off ever could.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

@deepimpact and KSUviolet, call me crazy but I think Jesus would want me to give a hungry man a sandwich. I think good work like that shows people Jesus, and makes a bigger impact than talking their ear off ever could.

Not to mention that people usually don't CARE whether there's a God and what He's all about when their basic human needs aren't being met.